As I feared might happen, your friendly diocesan convention news elf (me) has been super-swamped with her real job and ministry responsibilities of late, and so hasn’t been following the diocesan convention news much at all. Sorry about that. (Kendall’s been doing a pretty good job, covering the news, however. So, I think we’ll keep him on the payroll! 😉 ) But the following picture from the diocese of Michigan’s diocesan convention just couldn’t be ignored and pulled this elf out of self-imposed blogging exile, if just for a few minutes…
The caption reads: “Bishop Wendell Gibbs led the Diocesan Convention worship on Saturday, October 27.”
The accompanying story is here along with full coverage of the convention resolutions, the bishop’s address, etc.
Nice to see the MGDs (peace and blessings be upon them) given the prominence they so richly deserve seeing as how TEC is showering a whopping 0.7% of their budget on them.
How coarse of me. Bad DNM!. Bad DNM!
MDGs (peace and blessings be upon them) not MGDs.
Outrageous!!! There’s a crucifix blocking part of the Holy MDG Sign! Have these people no sense of all that is holy???
What in the Millenium Development Goals do you find incompatible with the Gospel?
Brian,
It is not the goals themselves that we find objectionable. It is their prominence and positioning. They seem to have replaced all call for mission and evangelism in TECUSA. The prominence given them at this Diocesan Convention is a great case in point. Why not have flanking signs with the Great Commission and the Great Commandment or quotations from Matthew 25 & 28? I tapes the relevant passages to the inside cover of my BCP because both are of critical importance.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Oh my goodness! Several clergy are wearing stoles from Guatemala, a church in the Global Center. This will not stand!!!!!
IN all honesty this is a joke.
Jesus Christ has been replace by the MDG’s. The saddest part, is that for most of our Church , especially where I go to seminary, this is really true.
I will tell you that you cannot replace the Gospel.
Conservatives are willing to show the faults of liberals, but the truth is that most churches, including conservative evangelical churches have lost sight of the Gospel. We have become boring, out of touch with society, and too judgmental. Where are those who have same-sex attraction? Where are our youth? Where are the immigrants and ethnic people? Where are our poor?
Lord have mercy upon us. Forgive us O Lord.
Lord have mercy.
[blockquote]What in the Millenium Development Goals do you find incompatible with the Gospel? [/blockquote]
Other than being a tired rehash of failed policies from the 1950-80 era, administered by a bottomlessly corrupt organization, funded at the point of a gun and used by a godless church as a stalking horse…not a thing, Brian.
Phil
Then it becomes about priorities, if I understand you. The MDGs are not incompatible (as Jesus taught or lived out all 8), but the objection is that in a limited space we should concentrate on salvayion as opposed to other issues?
Jeffersonian,
We all know that God is a Republican, but why does He want kids to die?
I rest my case.
Brian,
It isn’t that the MDG’s are incompatible with the gospel, that picture reminds me of how many Episcopalians with whom I’ve spoken who equate the MDG’s with the gospel; or worth, replace it.
“Lift High the M-D-G’s”
Chorus: Lift the M – D – G’s,
They are true love, by far,
‘Til all the world proclaim
How great we are.
1. Led on our way by this inspiring creed
Not Christ, the Cross, the Gospel – this is what we need.
Typo worth = worse
Thank you
Brian from T19:
Virtually every age has its excesses. I certainly would agree that the MDG’s are worthy. If we define that as the mission of the Church, however, we are losing sight of a significant part of the Gospel.
As for this picture, it is only a picture. For those of us used to crosses, saints, or the Decalogue behind our altars, however, it is a little disconcerting.
And by the way, why do we build cathedral centers, and then hold our diocesean conventions in tacky conference rooms?
Randall
Let’s all remember what the MDG’s are, people, and what they are not. They are NOT an Episcopal charity used to feed/clothe/house the poor in Third World nations. If I remember correctly, not a penny of TEC’s MDG cash (a whopping 0.7% of its next three years’ budget) will go to a single poor person. It’s about lobbying Congress to tax Americans to give more cash to an organization, the United Nations, that just got done overseeing a fraud that makes Enron look like a dimestore shoplifting excursion: Oil-for-Food.
Christ taught us to give to the poor. He did not tell us to take the money from someone else and then congratulate ourselves on our magnanimity.
It kind of reminds me of the murals that John Hagee always seems to have behind him when he is preaching. His are a lot more colorful.
BTW, can anyone tell me what the clergy person on the left is wearing on her head. It doesn’t look very Anglican. Is there a name for it?
Oh, and one more thing. Why does the clergy person on the left also appear to be barefooted? Is this some part of the liturgy with which I am not familiar?
The service is taking place at a convention center on a temporary stage. The mock outrage would be more effective if the photo were from an actual church that had been ruthlessly redecorated and desecrated by the godless liberals. Thank goodness in reasserting dioceses they don’t allow the convention space to double as a worship space!
Posting the MDG’s sure beats a display of diocesan stats. From 1996 through 2002 the diocese lost 17 percent of its members and from 2002 through 2006 lost another 16 percent. Plate & Pledge increased about 22 percent between 1996 and 2001 which was comfortably above inflation. But between 2001 and 2006 Plate & Pledge increased by only 6 percent which was far below inflation.
Statmann
As to the asymmetrical signs of devotion, I don’t believe that the U.N., out of obedience to and love for God, died to reconcile Man with God.
The U.N. seems to specialize in showing up late, counting the dead, and wagging its finger at the West, saying that they could have prevented the whole thing by sending more money for rice and condoms.
The Holocaust: “Never Again”
Rwanda: “I thought we said ‘Never Again’?”
Darfur: “Oh, not this again”
The U.N. cannot solve the problems of Man because it’s run by Man. In desperation, some will advocate increasingly totalitarian measures to create “Peace on Earth”. Evidence the push for taxation (forced charity) to feed the poor (while reducing the numbers of the poor with abortions and birth control).
The U.N. seems to specialize in showing up late, counting the dead, and wagging its finger at the West, saying that they could have prevented the whole thing by sending more money for rice and condoms.
The Holocaust: “Never Againâ€
Rwanda: “I thought we said ‘Never Again’?â€
Darfur: “Oh, not this againâ€
And what exactly has Jesus done for those dead? He didn’t even send rice. Let’s not be ridiculous here.
Brian
I am beyond surprise and into disgust for what you wrote in #21. What did Jesus do for those dead? Well, for one thing, he emptied himself and became man so that they might have union with God. Jesus lived as a person, was betrayed by a friend, was scourged by the experts at it and then endured the most horrific death know in its day. If you think that Lethal Injection is “cruel and unusual” try crucifixion! Jesus lived and died that they might have eternal life. It is [b]our[/b] responsibility to spread that Good News to them. If we do it with food and sanitation and medicine and education, so much the better. But we must do it. In spite of the MDGs, the UN has done little or nothing to prevent the holocausts in Rwanda and Darfur.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Those people in the picture look so positivley excited and focused!
I’ve seen plenty of people leading in worship that had many looks other than what is perhaps best, but I have seen mighty few that have looked that bored.
[i] He didn’t even send rice. [/i]
Actually, He did, Brian, using His people, who, as we know, give substantially to charitable activities. Perhaps you have never heard of Catholic Charities, World Vision, Food for the Hungry, and a thousand other Christian organizations feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, treating the sick, and visiting prisoners.
While I am at it, I have to note that Brian’s #4 had no antecedent: no one had claimed the MDGs were incompatible with the gospel. But ya’ll bit, so that Brian had the pleasure of hi-jacking the thread.
Brian, you are welcome to your symbolic, feel-good MDGs. The rest of us will be out feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and so on.
It would have been nice to see the Ten Commandments as another backdrop. But then, perhaps TEC has morphed them into the MDGs?
[blockquote] The U.N. seems to specialize in showing up late, counting the dead, and wagging its finger at the West, saying that they could have prevented the whole thing by sending more money for rice and condoms.[/blockquote]
Don’t forget them sending in “peacekeepers” that happily wave in mass murderers in Srebernica and set up child prostitution or drug dealing rings. This, in addition to putting lunatic Libyan dictatorship in charge of its human rights body. And let’s not forget the unlamented Kofi Annan’s son Kojo who, while holding down a $30k a year job managed to cough up $250k to invest in a Swiss soccer club.
It is almost impossible to overstate the depth of the corruption of the UN. It’s a perfect idol for the debased and corrupt church that now sets its goals above its altars and indeed above its Founder.
Brian wrote:
[blockquote] And what exactly has Jesus done for those dead? He didn’t even send rice. [/blockquote]
I haven’t seen a better summary of what is wrong with the Episcopal Church. Thank you Brian. I, for one, appreciated the reminder of what this dispute is really about.
T-19 Brian,
All you have to do is read reports like this – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7076284.stm – to understand why anything coming from the UN needs to be suspect, even if stated in [i]almost heavenly [/i] language.
I wonder what the PRIMATES of the anglican communion had to say about this. Let me find it somewhere, oh, here it is from their 2005 communique:
[blockquote] In the second half of our meeting we addressed some issues of practical ministry which have been on our agenda now for the last couple of years. We received a report of the present situation in relation to the ministry of African churches in particular amongst people living with HIV/AIDS; the dying, the bereaved, and orphaned children. We noted that this serious challenge is faced by all of our churches. We now accept, however, that our concerns must be broadened to include those suffering from TB and malaria. We know that this year 3 million people will die of AIDS, 2 million of TB, and 1 million of malaria. We have also been called to support the General Secretary of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, and world leaders in developing effective strategies for achieving the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) by 2015.13 In addition to the commitment to combat HIV/AIDS, TB and malaria, these MDGs include reducing absolute poverty by half and reducing hunger by half by 2015. In the longer term we must eradicate both. Other MDGs include lowering child mortality and improving maternal health, universal primary education, access to clear drinking water, and the building of sustainable development partnerships between rich and poor. Accordingly we call upon the people of God in all the Provinces of our Communion to encourage leaders of government to pursue these goals with vigour, and to pray for the strengthening of their resolve to achieve the MDGs by 2015. [/blockquote]
Looks like the people of this diocese are embracing the primates call to “pursue these goals with vigour, and pray for the strengthening of thier resolve to acheive the MDGs by 2015.”
Brian: “Let’s not be ridiculous here”
Brian, you have no room to comment on others being ridiculous.
All, this thread is NOT intended to debate the merits or problems of the UN and/or the Millenium Development Goals per se. As with any human organization there have been successes and failures. There have been noble leaders and causes at the UN, and corrupt leaders and misguided or immoral causes. Please accept these facts as given and beyond debate.
What is considered fair game for debate is the extent to which the MDGs seem to becoming the be-all-end-all of TEC’s “mission” and “message” in some quarters.
–elfgirl
[blockquote] Looks like the people of this diocese are embracing the primates call to “pursue these goals with vigour, and pray for the strengthening of thier resolve to acheive the MDGs by 2015.†[/blockquote]
They know better, but it’s a few bucks tossed their way. The goals are lovely, if unrealistic with the methods proposed by the UN. And, given the UN’s track record, likely to come with as much evil as good.
As a color blind man I’m delighted to see a diagnostic tool for color blindness being used by the Bishop as a vestment.
The Convention Eucharist was held in the Holiday Inn South, Lansing, Michigan. The Theme of convention was “Living the Millenium Goals”, and the poster overhead had to do with the dinner speaker on Friday PM, and the rest of convention on Saturday. Holy Communion took place on the head table for convention but was not the theme of the Mass per se.
I too wish ECUSA would concentrate on the cure for the cause of poverty – the temptations of the World, the Flesh, and the Devil rather than trying to just treat the symptoms. But everyone is reading more into the picture than intended.
Fr. Steven J. Kelly, SSC
St. John’s Church, Detroit – a 1928 BCP Parish of the Episcopal Diocese of Michigan – http://www.stjohnsdetroit.org
We’re just having a little fun at DioMI’s expense, Father Kelly, though the convention theme does reinforce the perception that TEC has more than begun to replace the Gospel with more shallow, secular foci.
Brian wrote:
[blockquote]And what exactly has Jesus done for those dead? He didn’t even send rice. Let’s not be ridiculous here.[/blockquote]
Where’s your Good News, Brian? Do you even have any?
What is telling is that the MDG poster is way way bigger than the Cross in the picture.
#40, I think it especially appropriate to mock them insofar as it illuminates the heretical nature of their current path while denying them what they so dearly crave: martyrdom at the hands of the wicked bully reasserter. There’s no honor in having your foolishness laughed at.
DaveJ, you seem to think you can read my mind and heart re: motives. You’re wrong.
Reread the main entry. Nowhere did I make fun of the Diocese of Michigan. They posted the picture on their diocesan convention news page. I find and post what I consider to be interesting diocesan convention news. Other commenters seem to agree it is interesting. If Kendall has a problem with what I posted or considers it shameful, I’m sure he’ll let me know and/or comment here.
I wrote nothing satirical or flippant. I merely said I found the photo “[b]impossible to ignore[/b].” I found it a very striking visual and thus was lured into posting it. Yet I did not do so as a joke or deliberate provocation. I did not write anything mocking the photo. Neither we elves, nor Kendall are responsible for what other commenters write. We try not to deliberately bait or inflame. We moderate comments as we are able when the tone gets out of hand. But we won’t shy away from pointing out concerns. I found the picture a very powerful as an illustration of a concern many reasserters have been voicing for the past 2-3 years. That’s why I posted it pure and simple. In some quarters of our church the MDGs are being exalted above the gospel message of salvation.
Don’t believe me?
Check here:
http://www.goodshepherdacton.org/253128.ihtml
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_83850_ENG_HTM.htm
Merely two random links that came up very high on a Google search of “Episcopal Church” and “Millenium Development Goals.” You tell me whether MDGs are supplanting the message of the Gospel is some parts of TEC?
Important: [b]We did not say the MDG banner over the altar was intentional nor that the Dio Michigan was worshipping the MDGs.[/b] Those are your words not ours. Yet obviously, many interpreted that as being the case. And the fact that the convention was so heavily oriented around the MDGs certainly could lend itself to such an interpretation, wrongly or rightly.
Perhaps the question to ask in all this is: Why would folks interpret this picture in this way when we provided absolutely no commentary or spin? Maybe it’s because of everything else they’ve been reading in Episcopal life and various bishops’ sermons and statements the last 2 years or so. Given the context of what we’ve been seeing or reading, such interpretations are sadly all too plausible. And that is exactly what we hoped to see discussed here.
So there. You now know our motives. Judge for yourselves.
As for bare feet, one VERY ORTHODOX priest of my acquaintance always celebrates the Eucharist in bare feet because when he is at the altar he is on holy ground (his reasoning).
I think posting this picture to point out some failing of TEC was ridiculous. It’s a convention meeting room, not a church. Why look for something to criticize at every single turn? Why always look for the negative?
Oops, I meant to also add this link in my “don’t believe me?” list above:
http://www.e4gr.org/index.html
especially this from the Episcopalians for Global Reconciliation website:
[blockquote]Agreed to in 2000 by representatives of more than 190 nations, the 8 MDGs are our response as humanity to the deepest material brokenness in the world today.
The MDGs have been embraced by the Episcopal Church at the past three General Conventions, culminating in 2006 when the church made supporting the MDGs its No. 1 mission priority.[/blockquote]
Read that again: [b]the MDGs are the church’s number 1 mission priority.[/b]
Oh and note the MDG’s shaped into a cross on that same website.
http://www.e4gr-more.org/74.jpg
DaveJ, relax. There are bigger problems out there. They put that GIGANTIC POWERPOINT SLIDE (~$150 or so at your local Kinkos) to be seen, noticed, photographed, and commented upon.
I only hope that some of the money for MDGs (peace and blessings upon them) goes to the clergy shoe fund for the dio of michigan (see photo left).
One final link and then I call it a night. From the 2006 General Convention archives at ENS:
http://www.ecusa.anglican.org/75383_75725_ENG_HTM.htm
[blockquote]A dozen people spoke on behalf of the United Nations Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), an eight-prong declaration that has at its core the eradication of extreme poverty and hunger by the year 2015. The Rev. Michael Kinman, executive director of Episcopalians for Global Reconciliation, called the MDGs [b]”humanity at its best, the body of Christ at our most bold.”[/b] Noting that 71 dioceses already have signed on in support of the goals, he asked the committee to “bless and name what God is already doing.”
Other speakers noted how involvement with the goal of eradicating poverty had increased a parish’s spiritual health and has provided a means for young people to be more involved in the life of the church.
Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori of Nevada recalled the start of Jesus’ public ministry in her remarks in support of the MDGs. She noted Jesus read from Isaiah in which the prophet proclaims God’s reign as a time when good news is preached to the poor, the blind receive sight and the oppressed are set free. [b]“The Millennium Development Goals are an icon, a vision, a lens of the reign of God in our own day,†she said.[/b]
Bonnie Anderson, vice president of the House of Deputies and a deputy from Michigan, [b]asked PB&F;to make the MDGs the only mission priority for the Episcopal Church,[/b] noting the goals could be the lens through which other important needs within the church could be engaged. She said there was a “groundswell” of support, with resolutions set to come before General Convention from a number of dioceses, provinces and deputies.[/blockquote]
All emphasis mine. It’s stuff like this that’s driving the interpretation of the picture, not anything we wrote.
[i] DaveJ: That’s enough criticism of the blog and the elves. [/i]
Re: bare feet. In many poor countries, shoes are removed on entering a home and on entering a holy place. It makes sense; the streets are dusty, and often covered with other kids of dirt as well. In India, no one ever entered the altar area with shoes. Many removed their shoes at the church door, and all removed them before approaching the communion rail.
In the Diocese of South India in which I spent time it was very common (though not universal) for shoes to be removed at the church door. It was almost universal in that diocese, except in a few English language parishes, for clergy to remove their shoes before entering the sanctuary (in addition most lay people would not enter the sanctuary). It does parallel the shoe removal before entering ordinary houses, and ‘houses’ of gods (i.e. hindu temples). On the other hand when I hosted Indian clergy on their visits to England they rarely removed their shoes as it was not the custom in English culture.
Too much caffeine today to stay awake in what seemed interminable meetings at work, so I’m not able to fall asleep. As I was trying to sleep, however, I thought of something Kendall posted on the old blog, which I have long considered one of the clearest responses by an orthodox Episcopalian/Anglican to the question of how should an orthodox Christian view the MDGs. The author, Craig Cole, is the director of Five Talents, an Anglican Micro-enterprise ministry.
For those of you who missed it the first time around (and it didn’t get many comments) here is Craig Cole’s opinion.
http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=15337
Here’s the key section:
[blockquote]They have become almost a rallying cry in The Episcopal Church, and they have released a wonderful rush of energy to assist the world’s poorest. In another positive aspect, the goals are agreed upon by many members of our denomination no matter where they stand on other issues.
However, I am concerned that in The Episcopal Church and in other denominations, we have focused more on justice while the centrality of Jesus Christ as our motivation has been lost. Have we made the MDGs such a mission priority of the church, that we have forgotten that our mission is evangelism as well? Do we quote the rock stars Bono and Bob Geldof more often than we quote the Bible or Mother Teresa?
We need to remind ourselves that the church has been working with the poor as an extension of our Christian faith for two millennia — long before the United Nations created the MDGs.
In the early days of Christianity, the newly born Church was one of outcasts, slaves, and women, and it was these who showed compassion to the poor of their time. Our goal has always been to help the widows and orphans. Not because it’s the right, or humanitarian thing to do, but because our love for Jesus compels us into the slums of Kenya or the villages of India so that we may share his love through our actions and our words. It’s the Christian imperative that has motivated Anglicans to provide food to the hungry, to build schools, hospitals and orphanages, to care for women and children, and in doing so form worldwide partnerships.
Today we should be the ones setting the goals and creating the hip campaign slogans, not the United Nations and other secular organizations. Let them follow us, not the other way around.
There also needs to be a ninth Millennium Development Goal for the church to share with the world — one of transformation and Christian reconciliation. Why not set the goal that by 2015 a majority of the world’s population will believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior because of the church’s work among the poor?[/blockquote]
Amen Craig!
And while searching for that link, I came across something else which provides wonderful perspective, some remarks on the MDGs in a sermon by Bishop Ed Salmon on the Widow’s mite:
[blockquote] It is a deeply broken and flawed world in which we live. Christian discipleship is a deadly serious business. And it is only the grace of God flowing from the arms of the Cross that can free the desperately distorted egos that we have to serve ourselves, because that’s where the Fall manifsts itself, we put ourselves first. Over and over and over and over again.
And I used the example at our convention about the wonderful requests that the new PB made of the Episcopal Church, which was a social program of monumental proportions which needs to be done. But the dramatic thing about the presentation was the assumption that we were good enough people to do it. And I say that, because we live in a fallen selfish world, and it is only a gospel that deals with the greed of the world that will allow what I would call a merciful expression to flow out into the world to heal it. And so what she did was, with a good heart, painted a utiopian picture of sinners doing good. Don’t count on it. Don’t count on it. Because we know that it was those same sinners that crucified Jesus. …
We know that we live in a fallen world, and that fallen world, when it comes to Mammon, is never able to live in such a way that Mammon is not a false god. And so until what I would call the sinful nature of humanity is healed and touched by the proclamation of the crucified and resurrected Christ, there is no social program that will make it. It doesn’t say we shouldn’t do it, in fact we should. No doubt about it, that and more. But how can the Christian Church start with good works, when we need to start with repentance. There is no way for it to work unless we do that. That’s what this passage about the widow’s mite is all about…
“…out of her poverty she has put in everything she has, her whole living.â€
That points to the cross. This is a passage that uses the image of money to point to the Cross, because Jesus puts in everything that he has, his whole living. And it’s that whole living that will transform the world. Nothing else. It is from that Cross that a ministry of graciousness and mercy can transform the world, that we can deal with poverty, but good will won’t do it.[/blockquote]
source: http://titusonenine.classicalanglican.net/?p=16200
And one more old link on the MDGs to round things up for the night:
Richard Kew’s perspective on the MDGs prior to GC06:
http://richardkew.blogspot.com/2006/04/millennium-development-goals.html
DaveJ. and others, I hope the fact that I remembered and was able to quite quickly pull some of these old links might show you that I actually am interested in serious debate about the MDGs and our endorsing them as a church, not just looking for “Yuks” or sarcasm in what I posted. But you and others are of course are free to believe whatever you want about my intentions. I rest my case.
Thanks to the_Elves for the many references on problems with the MDGs. Because of these many references, this thread will be a winner for a long time, allowing people to refer back to it in discussions to come.
In particular, the referenced essay by Richard Kew, as usual, provocative and well thought out and worthy for all to read and digest.
“And the revisionists at the General Convention created a new idol, a new golden calf, and they called this new idol Millenium Development Goals.
And yea, the Diocese of Michigan held up their eucharistic cup before this new idol, and they, overcome by their human sense of divine inspiration called this new idol ‘good.'”
I am beyond surprise and into disgust for what you wrote in #21. What did Jesus do for those dead?
One man’s ironic wit is another man’s blasphemy. My only point is that these uber-nationalist people who are so against the MDGs have no understanding of the practical application of Jesus’ teachings. The ‘my country right or wrong’ ideology of these myopic nationalists presumes that Jesus sanctioned a capitalist view of the world and a Puritan work ethic. The view is ridiculous.
elfgirl
You know I love you, but…take your Ritalin 😉 You post this picture and then make conclusions on church membership and decline and repeatedly claim that you are not making any conclusions?
Just own it, elfgirl!
The most important thing to note about TEC and the MDGS is not whether the MDGs are or are not a UN boondoggle but that TEC’s proclamation of the MDGs is a case of Miami Vice social activism (flash over substance). TEC will spend a mere .7% of its budget on the MDGs, while proclaiming them as if they are the new gospel. (And, yes, I know that .7% is the mandated percentage.) TEC will spend far more than this on litigation this year, and for the foreseeable future.
Meanwhile, World Vision has an annual budget of $2.6 billion, and will spend 87% of its funding on program. If you actually want to make a difference when it comes to eliminating poverty, there is no question as to which organization you would prefer to donate. On the other hand, if you’re primarily interested in putting up big signs that proclaim your virtue to the poor without actually making a whole lot of difference, well, then, you also know where to give.
My very small Anglican parish budgets 10% of its receipts for outreach, the vast majority of which goes to help the poor locally, and when we are able, through online connections, Third World poor. We’ve been able through such connections to give tents to house Pakistani earthquake victims and to provide clean running water and toilets to an orphanage in India. Giving of this type, through Anglican or other Christian organizations which work on the ground with the poor, out-reaches TEC-Central’s “advocacy.” As William Witt says, give where it will make a difference.
[blockquote] You know I love you, but…take your Ritalin[/blockquote]
Wow Brian, you are a rather rude guest to say something like that to a hostess, aren’t you?
#58, ok Brian! I admit the Ritalin comment got me laughing out loud. Don’t worry KAR, Brian and I have had enough e-mail exchanges that he knows he can joke a bit.
Actually, the scary thing, is that I’m sitting here drinking yet more strong coffee this morning. Though this is my first cup…
[blockquote] So as a Christian, mockery is appropriate? Ever?[/blockquote]
I think I’ve already answered that question.
[blockquote]One man’s ironic wit is another man’s blasphemy. My only point is that these uber-nationalist people who are so against the MDGs have no understanding of the practical application of Jesus’ teachings. The ‘my country right or wrong’ ideology of these myopic nationalists presumes that Jesus sanctioned a capitalist view of the world and a Puritan work ethic. The view is ridiculous. [/blockquote]
One doesn’t need to be an “uber -nationalist” to be aware that the United Nations is, at very best, a deeply flawed vehicle to carry out any program at attaining the aims delineated in the MDGs. It is an organization filled to the brim with corrupt kleptocracies, rabid anti-semites, brutal dictatorships and incompetent satrapies that just completed the theft of $20 [b]billion[/b] in the Oil for Food scam. That a nominally Christian body would put its faith, if not its theological center of gravity, in such an organization boggles the mind.
So why not implement the MDGs through ERD or some other NGO? I think the answer lies in what the $1 million to be spent by TEC goes for: lobbying. TEC isn’t spending its money to help anyone here, it’s spending its money to get the central state to tax other people, forcing them to support TEC’s organizational goals. And I can guaran-damn-tee you, Brian, that there is nothing in Jesus’s teaching that exhorts us to impress others into doing that.
Brian,
You steped into it with your question/comment about what has Jesus’ done for the dead – eternal salvation being the meat and potatoes of Christianity – but as we recall from your past posts you do not really own the word “Christian”.
The UN by all appearances is a thoroughly corupt institution – I divide them into three groups – 1) those seeking power for their countries (or to prevent conerted action from other nations) ie the former Soviet Union 2) those seeking to enrich themselves ie Kofi Anon and 3) pointed headed socialists/utopians seeking to undermine the nation state (by far the most dangerous). I would rather set fire to the money than to give anything to the United Nations – the Anglican Communion has churches (and Churches in countries) which are in dire straits – I think we should be giving to them instead.
Brian,
Are you sure that Jesus would not endorce capitalism or the puritan work ethic? Capitalism has eleviated more poverty on a grander scale than any utopian scheme I am aware of. Hard work usually also pays off – the “Talent” parable comes to mind.
As a corrective note, supporting the MDGs does [b]not[/b] mean supporting how the UN deals with poverty or other issues nor does it mean using any UN or 815 agencies or organizations. You can work towards the MDGs through the ARDF or specific churches such as in Nigeria or Peru. So while many support the MDGs through the corrupt UN (and it is an organization that I loathe) or 815 (another organization that is not high on my good list), I choose to support the MDGs through personal means such as giving money and time to different member churches within the Anglican Communion.
While the MDGs are worthy goals, they are not the ultimate goals and should not be our end goal. Our end goal is union with God and the spread of His Kingdom. If we accomplish this, then the MDGs will be included.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Did Christ say, “If you love me, feed my sheep,” or did he say, “If you love me, then tell all my other sheep to love me too”?
Brian,
You steped into it with your question/comment about what has Jesus’ done for the dead – eternal salvation being the meat and potatoes of Christianity – but as we recall from your past posts you do not really own the word “Christianâ€.
Nor do I own the concept of atonemnet!
Jeffersonian et al
I agree with you that the UN is a horrible organization. In my classes where they come up, I often refer to them as the Useless Nations. I don’t believe that America should even be a part of the UN. But that does not alter the fact that the MDGs are worthy of support.
And remember that, with minor alterations, this comment:
the United Nations is, at very best, a deeply flawed vehicle to carry out any program at attaining the aims delineated in the MDGs. It is an organization filled to the brim with corrupt kleptocracies, rabid anti-semites, brutal dictatorships and incompetent satrapies that just completed the theft of $20 billion in the Oil for Food scam.
could be said of the Church.
“Did Christ say, “If you love me, feed my sheep,†or did he say, “If you love me, then tell all my other sheep to love me tooâ€?”
I’m pretty sure Christ said “If you love me, collectivize the means of production, from each according to his means, to each according to his needs, distribution to be handled by Ceasar at the point of a sword.” At least that’s what I learned in PECUSA Sunday school…
Also, “there is no greater love than that a man be willing to extort capital by threat of force from his fellow man to implement utopian schemes.”
I hate to interupt while folks are busy deciding who’s Christian and whoi’s not and who’s a better Christian, etc. However, I think the picture was misleading (although providing yet another opportunity for some to declare TEC’s demise and others to extol the virtues of social service!). The convention probably met at a secular hotel with the Eucharist taking place in the hall also used for the meeting and the banquet. Therefore, I doubt very seriously that the placement of the MDG’s was anything more than the accidental consequence of the space. Once again, sorry for the intrusion. You can go back to attacking one another in the name of Christ!
I’m pretty sure Christ said “If you love me, collectivize the means of production, from each according to his means, to each according to his needs
Actually cabbages, that was the firs Christian community described in the Acts of the Apostles – it’s right after the Gospels so I can see the confusion.
Right Brian . . . but it’s not this, which was of course what Cabbage actually wrote: “If you love me, collectivize the means of production, from each according to his means, to each according to his needs, distribution to be handled by Ceasar at the point of a sword.”
I can see why you might have missed the last dozen words.
Will B, you wrote: [i]Therefore, I doubt very seriously that the placement of the MDG’s was anything more than the accidental consequence of the space. [/i]
Certainly that is plausible, and some commenters from the Dio Michigan have written verifying that it was not some kind of MDG-focused liturgy. Well and good. The picture still can be worth discussing because of the fact that there has been such extreme focus on the MDGs in some quarters (e.g. HoD President Bonnie Anderson urging the Executive Council to make the MDGs the ONLY mission priority funded by TEC and subsume all other outreach into the framework of the MDGs, see link in one of my comments above).
And still there is the fact that the diocese of Michigan published this photo, as a feature on their diocesan news site and convention coverage. To them it has some significance, and clearly no one can ignore the fact of the MDG banner behind the altar in the traditional place of a cross and sometimes the decalogue. It’s not like we took the photo secretly and published it to embarrass the diocese. It is their own photo, published by their own choice. We merely republished it. And without spin on our part (in the main entry). We did not encourage snarky comments nor attacks. We merely considered it a gripping visual image to promote a discussion of the role of the MDGs in TEC. Certainly we succeeded!
–elfgirl
[blockquote] But that does not alter the fact that the MDGs are worthy of support. [/blockquote]
Supporting lofty goals is one thing (and remember, trillions have already gone into attempts to alleviate these ills), but doing so through means any sentient being knows are corrupt is wicked.
Brian: “But that does not alter the fact that the MDGs are worthy of support.”
Who said they weren’t? The controversy, Brian, is the level of importance placed on the MDG’s, not whether or not they are worthy of support.
“And remember that, with minor alterations, this comment:
the United Nations is, at very best, a deeply flawed vehicle to carry out any program at attaining the aims delineated in the MDGs. It is an organization filled to the brim with corrupt kleptocracies, rabid anti-semites, brutal dictatorships and incompetent satrapies that just completed the theft of $20 billion in the Oil for Food scam.
could be said of the Church. ”
MINOR alterations? Utterly asinine. Not to mention betraying the fact that you see the Church not as an institution established by God to save the souls of Man, but as just another social activist group.
Rolling Eyes
It is an organization filled to the brim with corrupt kleptocracies
[url=http://news.aol.com/story/_a/senate-probes-televangelists-finances/20071106091309990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001]Senate Probes Televangelists[/url]
rabid anti-semites
entire history of the Christian Church up to and including today
brutal dictatorships
again, most of the history of the Church.
incompetent satrapies
and again…need I say more?
you see the Church not as an institution established by God to save the souls of Man, but as just another social activist group.
You’re right that I do not see it as an institution established by God to save anyone. I see it as a necessity established by the Apostles and corrupted to destroy the souls of man, not to save them.
One important distintion, Brian: I’m not taxed to support Pat Robertson (and I don’t support him voluntarily, either). What TEC is doing is not supporting the MDGs per se, but using their money to lobby Congress to take tax dollars from me and give them to an organization that is, by your own admission, corrupt and incompetent. The TEC/UN link cannot be done away with by a wave of the hand – it is intrinsic to their MDG effort.
Elves, I think the picture was worth posting, as a visual example of what many of us feel is happening in the Church, not as a specific wrong of the Dio. of Michigan. I’m not entirely certain it was worth discussing, given the nature of the picture and its relation to a specific diocese. The MDGs’ place in the church’s mission is open to debate, but the context of photograph could have and has skewed the discussion. I’d have posted it with closed comments.
Brian, you think our entire enterprise is therefore a sham. So I for one will view any of your comments in that light, and give them the attention that position is due (which is with caution but a generous heart). I do agree with you that mockery is undue, and a poor method for evangelism. A light hearted jab at one’s adversaries can be playful enough, but sustained mockery is not.
#76 Elves
Exactly! The fact that the MDGs are the centerpiece of a diocesan convention, and the schwerepunct of National Episcopal efforts rather than a tangent of our faith shows that we have become a denomination of ordained social workers, who use the symbol of a clergy collar to aid moral credence to political and social views. The fact they they want to use other people’s money makes it even worse.
blockquote]denomination of ordained social workers[/blockquote]
Hey, let’s have a little respect for social workers! They actually work one on one with poor people, homeless people, alcoholics, people with substance abuse problems. They don’t instead encourage people to give .7% of their income so that someone else can work with poor people, etc.
#83 William Witt,
I’m sorry if you mis-understood my comment. Social workers do great things, but if you want to do those things, if they are your driving passion, then be a social worker. Ordained ministry is not about social work with a religious patina.
For the record, a while back (in November), the Diocese of Michigan complained about this post. The link and our response (also written in November) is here:
http://new.kendallharmon.net/wp-content/uploads/index.php/t19/article/7751
However, flash forward to Jan. 2008. It looks more and more as if our concern was and is justified. You can read the latest installment of the “gospel of the MDGs” and my latest comment here:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/9393/#173769
–elfgirl
#79 Revk, I’m pretty sure I know William Witt and if it is the same person, you just have to get used to his humor. I’m pretty sure he agrees with you completely.