Bishop Duncan gave me an interview during his visit. He said: “It is hard to imagine how the Communion can be kept together. The American church remains committed to its progressive direction.” He compared it to US foreign policy. “The American Episcopal Church, rather like American foreign policy, is determined the world will go precisely the way it wishes. It seems a split is almost unavoidable at this point.”
A great many people observing the situation, he said, are speaking in terms of the “Anglican experiment” being over. “That is a great sadness. The question for the rest of us is whether we can again be both Reformed and Catholic. The jury is out. Will it simply disintegrate or will it break into two parts? It is a long-term historical question. The 21st century will give an answer to it but we are only at the beginning of that century.”
From my personal perspective, I have to say, things look a little different….
I think Ruth’s final comment is wonderfully honest. She admits that she is willing to engage the ABC’s “go slow” approach because she is in a healthy parish.
I think all of us do well to ask if our preferred “way forward” is based on our relative comfort (if in a healthy, supportive diocese or parish) or on our desire for pain relief (if in an unhealthy setting).
Carrying the cross isn’t attractive, and comfort can tempt us to avoid it, while grinding pain can tempt us to throw the cross aside and run.
I think it was Cranmer who said something like, “Some there are that be too fast and need the bridle, others too slow and need the spur.”
What’s coming to an end is the uneasy cohabitation between liberal and conservative theology. The former has parasitically attached itself to the structures of the church, and what we see is the struggle to finally remove it. This is not a struggle between catholic and reformed. Remove the parasite from the host, and the host may yet again flourish. But can the parasite be removed without destroying the CoE? Aye, there’s the rub.
carl
“The American Episcopal Church, rather like American foreign policy, is determined the world will go precisely the way it wishes.”
I’m starting to find these comparisons of TEC’s actions to American foreign policy more glib than helpful.
I’m starting to find these comparisons of TEC’s actions to American foreign policy more glib than helpful.
Yes. It is almost as if there is an implicit belief that the world and the church should behave indentically. It seems to me that that type of thinking is part of the reason we are where we are.
The point, of course, is the arrogance.
Has Bob Duncan been attending the Rowan Williams School
of Foreign Policy? He comparison is very shallow.
If Anglicans don’t find their way within the next dozen years, the “Experiment” will truly be over.
In the U.S., at the current rate of attrition, I’d think you are on the money, Br_er Rabbit. Of course, as a downhill slide continues the rate of descent increases until terminal velocity is reached, so maybe 7 or 8 years, tops. How would you characterize continuum churches, though?
I’d rate them iffy. I have been to some that are exclusively populated by silverhaired elders.
…still in the Briar Patch,
Those who think they are in “safe parrishes”, do not understand the spiritual links in an heirarchael (sp) church structure. They are in the most danger, because the harm is not visible.
bl
Appreciate Ruth’s comments. Good to hear how things are in the Anglican Communion somewhere else. Glad it’s not all as it is here, that the Anglican Communion is bigger than our mess. I dare say, for that reason, that the Anglican experiment is not over, and we won’t be able to spoil it for everyone else. -RB
It is so over! It may be all good for folks who reside in a diocese where they are in agreement over theology or have not pursued an agenda agressively. Then yes, it could be very easy to step back and say this ain’t so bad. Many of us are not in such a diocese. Some climates are down right nasty.
Is my way forward based on my comfort level? You bet! It is definately time to leave when the priest can not stop the insults from the pulpit and tensions are raised. It is time to leave when her husband shows up univited and unannounced to fight in a vestry meeting. It is time to leave when I shake the priest’s hand at the end of the service and instead I want to slap her across the face. It is time to leave when you come home from church angry and it ruins your Sunday afternoon with your family.
My rational side understands the anglicans are in crisis and are risking their very careers in separating with the TEC. I support them, applaud them and pray for them and hope they succeed. The other side of me is wondering where the heck are they and why is there no support for conservatives trapped in a liberal diocese. When will they be viable to expand and reach out to other conservative Episcopalians in other places? 12 years??!! I can’t wait that long. We will have long found our path, a different path by then.
The Episcopals will eventually cease to exist as they lose members and blow through their money on agendas and lawsuits. The anglicans have a tough road ahead and little resources. Many people, like me, who would like to support them are unable to because they do not exist in my community and I can not wait years and years.
The comparison to US foreign policy is lame. All Bush is suggesting is democracy is far more civilized than the other choices, a choice referenced in Churchill’s politically incorrect comments on Muslims from a century ago [ great stuff ]. I love the quote from the current Virginia trial which says something like ” You have no right to come into our church and dismember it from within”. It is my personal opinion that people like Stacey Sauls and David Booth Beers should be forced to spend a year studying under the spiritual tutelege of the young woman in Colorado Springs who, after fasting, praying and seeking God’s will for her life, warned the church leadership there to beef up security after a shooting in Arvada, CO by a deranged former church member. She then calmly, with Gos as her guidance, shot him to death as he entered firing – acknowledging it was, in fact, God’s will for her life and that she was God’s instrument in saving many others of the thousands in attendance at the time. Had the Episcopal Church in Wyoming warned the young gay man in its midst about his failure to seek God’s will for his life, perhaps he would be alive today instead of being found dead and beaten along a roadside after trolling for sex in a bar – behavior condoned and tolerated by his own Episcopal Church; a martyr to the Episcolib Movement. I note that Stacey Sauls graduated from the same law school as Teddy Kennedy, another spiritual juggernaut and Beers attended law school at Berkeley. Maybe Sauls could study theology under the real Bishop of Lexington, a Roman Catholic, and Beers could simply shut up and listen to the Lord for once instead of practicing his checkbook theology. He and Sauls both have so much gauze over their eyes that both will individually experience personally the Biblical concept of “Vengeance is mine”. Talk about Pharisees.
#12 – Are you in the United States, or in Canada? The ANiC is starting to try to connect “orphans”, people who are stuck in liberal areas, with each other. The Rev. Desiree Steadman, in Ottawa, is organizing it. I don’t have contact info to hand, but if you to to this url: http://www.anglicannetwork.ca/contact.htm and ask, I am sure you will be put in contact with her, or (I hope), given help in finding someone who could help you where ever you are. I know that ANiC is working very hard to organize church plants across the country. Also, there are currently 1453 conservative Anglican churches listed on this website: http://www.shelterinthestorm.org/
Maybe you could find a new church home there? I was at the ANiC conference in Burlington, and the Spirit was moving, he really was. I still have hope for the Anglican communion, but I am very, very lucky, in that I have a church to go to that still preaches the gospel. God be with you, where ever you end up.
We are in Utah. Thanks for the information. I have recently heard of the Anglican church that has started in Utah. It is over an hour away and we have made contact with Fr. Christopher(very nice man) and have visited. We will visit the church on occasion but it will be too far to actively participate on a regular basis. Especially since it is over and around the mountain which many times in the winter the roads are impassable. Fr. christopher told us there are 2 families from our area who occasionally drive down as well. There is one family who drives down all the way from Wyoming on occasion because they are so desperate.
Yesterday we chatted with a conservative episcopal priest on our local base. I was thrilled!!! He just returned from Iraq, but his job is more adminstrative. We shared our experiences and he said he believed us because there are 2 other families who left the same church we just did (they left just before we had moved in and joined) and had similar stories. Another family had left right after Easter and have not found a new church.
It seems there are at least 5 families in my town who left the Episcopal church and are searching for an Anglican church, I’m thinking there has to be more. How does one find them all? Do you advertise in the paper and what does it take to get a priest in your area? Do you need a specific # of people, do you need your own resources to pay or will CANA provide a priest if there are enough people? OTOH, The church in Park City is still fragile and I would not want any competition to hurt their development until they are viable. Even though we could not participate to the degree we would like, we would still attend on occasion as would the other families.
Thanks again. I’m glad to hear that there is a church starting up, it isn’t an ideal location for us, but at least we can visit on occasion. We will probaly still look for something local, or then again, possibly not.
#15. The AAC website indicates no AAC churches in Utah. Perhaps the AAC could be supportive in your efforts. The female Episcopal bishop of Utah, a former Mormon and owner of a Utah family-owned consulting business, is very liberal and possibly will use her connections to suppress competition.
#15. Here in Southern California, there are home churches that meet with as few as 10 or 15 people. They use Morning or Evening Prayer when no priest is available. Some of these churches have eventually grown to the point that they are able to rent a place in another church or school. I think the issue is how much one really needs BCP worship.
I don’t think that CC or AAC is able to supply priests for these groups. Sometimes, one just appears. If you are up in northern Utah, I can’t see how you would seriously adversely affect Park City. But, by all means, discuss it with the priest there.
#15 – I would seriously encourage you to write to ANiC and ask them who to ask. ANiC is a Canadian organization, but I am sure that somebody there could at least point you in the right direction. Another thing you could try if you want to set up a house church, is to see if the priest on your base, or the one who is an hour away, would be willing to allow you to have communion at your house church with reserve sacrament. I know that lay people in my church bring communion to shut ins, I don’t see how that would be so different.
Ah yes, Juan you’ve heard of our bishop. They do a great job of controlling and withholding information from the folks. The information of the Anglican church was not offered to us nor was the information of a few unhappy families who’ve left and are in the area. A church about 30 minutes from us actually closed down. No one knew of it, nor was it ever discussed. The folks in our church have no information regarding the current issues and crisis in our church. All they know is the conservatives are hateful unloving people who wish to exclude all gay people and women. They also think there are evil people in Africa who barging into the US trying to take over churches and diocese without any authority to do so. We asked if we could have a conservative speaker come to our church to offer the other side of the story (we already had 3 liberal speakers come) and we were told NO. I offered to take the AAC course and present it myself and was told NO, that she couldn’t allow us to do that. It is definately a controlled environment around here. The issue was on the agenda for the vestry. The vestry unanimously voted to allow us to speak the other side. This is why her lug of a husband showed up to the vestry meeting to fight. They were angry that we would dare override her decision and that the vestry would side with us.
#14 & #15 I may be able to ask the priest in Park City to come up to our area once in awhile. We may be able to work that out. The base priest (awesome guy) would not be able to. He works for the military and would not be able to work in the diocese of Utah without permission and there would be no way they would allow him to minister to any departing episcopalians. Also the real role of military priests are to serve active duty and it wouldn’t be right nor do I think he would be allowed to do this. He did however offer to get the few military families together for service and communion once in awhile and maybe dinner afterwards. Unfortunately we would not be able to allow civilians on base for this reason and he could not overstep his bounds by working off base. We will try to make the best of it, its just not easy and I’m still angry that my church has been destroyed.
#19 I understand your bishop is, amomg other things, a recovering alcoholoc and redhot to “go along to get along” with the Powers that Be in NYC – especially another female who’s the boss. Both need to lighten up – they both suffer from the frequent curse of many women in charge – a bit on the brittle side.