About a third of the way in I closed the video unable to take any more. I found myself making the sign of the cross as I did so. There is a place in life for partying. And it is not in the sanctuary. Seeing the large audio speakers I wondered if this was a sign of the influence of Matthew Fox, who has lately been promoting techno raves as the latest thing in spirituality.
The early Christians worshipped in homes, hid in catacombs, held their Eucharistic feasts in former pagan temples and public judicial halls. I’m sorry I can’t get worked up about this, but transmuting personal taste into Godly command isn’t particularly Christian. Is there any other place more worthy of partying than the sanctuary? Where we find new life in Christ? Where we confess our sins and are aboslved by virtue of his atonement? Where we as a community join are taken to heaven and are made present with our loving Creator? I fail to see the problem.
I don’t really have a problem with the music in the cathedral or with the dancing. You music is culturally appropriate for southern Louisiana, and dancing is a part of worship for many non-Western churches. Go to an African Pentecostal service and you will see much more spirited dancing.
The difficulty ofr me is this: to hold a Cajun service in southern California becomes a gimmick rather than a true outreach or an indigenous cultural expression of the worship of the local people. I don’t recall a large expatriate Cajun population in San Diego, but I could be wrong.
Although I don’t have any hard data, I do know that of the several U2 Eucharists that I am familiar with, they have ended up being gimmicks that drew a good number of people for an event, but which did not really bring in new people to the congregation. Seems I have heard the same complaint about Billy Graham’s Crusades. Hmm.
I will not otherwise fuss at an attempt to reach people with a Zydeco service. That is a noble attempt to reach the unreached. I don’t think that King David’s wife Michal would have liked it much, though.
Neal — I agree with you. However, most if not all the folks just looked like aging baby-boomer long-time Episcopalians thinking that they look cool while, er, “dancing”. A more forced, weird scene I have rarely seen.
It would be a bit like me and a friend going up to a Harlem street corner and fancying that we would appeal to the masses by showing off our break-dancing skills, little knowing that 1) we can’t break dance, 2) nobody cared [except for the throng that gathered in amused horror], and 3) breakdancing is out of date now.
Yeah, to clarify, I was primarily referring to the priests and deacons wearing mardi gras masks and pink boas over their vestments. I’m not a hard-liner on worship “style,” but music aside, this was a raucous costume party and liturgical confusion.
I must admit…
1) It appeared displaced, culturally (i.e., in southern Louisiana I’d be much more appreciative) and awkward;
2) It was liturgically messy. At least in appearance.
But I find no other argument against such a celebration.
Something I learned along the way. Attempts to be “cool” by the “uncool” will only confirm the “uncool” person’s lack of coolness.
I am a nerd (and a professional nerd by the way). The San Diego service strikes me as an “uncool” congregation trying to be cool.
I like St. Vincent’s much better because they are confortable with who they are liturgically. I also like good evangelical worship with cassocks and surplices and little or no manual acts. I also enjoy good charismatic worship with dancing and hand raising.
Good Anglican Worship is good worship when it knows who it is and Whom it worships. It does not need gimicks or tricks such as “U2charists” or “clown liturgies” or “Zydeco Liturgies” or “rave liturgies.” All Anglican Worship needs is to understand Whom it is worshipping.
Phil,
I think you’re being too hard on yourself. I’ve been in parishes that have done similar ‘themed’ Eucharists (including a Halloween one where the altar party was in Star Wars garb); more times than not, it was less an ‘outreach’ or evangelistic thing (come see how cool we are) and more of a ‘let’s celebrate the life God has given us together.’ Were there visitors there? Certainly, but that wasn’t the main focus of the evening. I’d guess that the St. Paul’s zydeco mass is in the same vein.
I’m a youthworker; I work in a CofE school and parish in the midlands, and I agree that gimmicky events aren’t the way to go about doing evangelism, particularly with teenagers. Relationships are much more important than being ‘relevant,’ in whatever condition you find yourself in. I just don’t think that this is one of those ‘gimmicks.’
How is this stuff any different from the dancing, costumed liturgical dancers, pop-praise band, and swaying priests around the altar in the CANA and AMIA parishes throughout the land? NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL!
If it “works” for conservatives, why not for liberals? CANA can cater to the baby-boomer culture, San Diego can catered to the Zydeco fad. (No offense intended: If this mass were in N.O. it might be culture, in SoCal it is just this year’s fashion statement.)
Isaac, I’m a young Anglican myself, and I’ve seen some wacky stuff in my time, particularly when I lived in the US but I also recently saw an advert for a “Goth Eucharist” outside a church in Cambridge. This YouTube video is a fantastic example of why young people are completely disillusioned with the more eccentric elements of Anglicanism. You’re right, relationships are the key, and the primary relationship that is built at mass on Sunday is the relationship between the believer and Jesus. The service in this video surgically removes Jesus from any part in the communion.
This service is so far removed from anything that would have happened in the early church it’s silly.
1. I have gone after those who would destroy Anglican musical heritage on this blog; having said that, there is nothing in the music itself (I can’t understand the text) that is inherently inappropriate. (Short of ideal, yeah, but not “bad.” My question is how or whether the music inspires devotion in the Augustinian model.
2. Obviously the “celebration” is culturally removed. Then again, we Episcopalians have removed the orderly worship of the British Isles and it is -completely- authentic for a lot of us. Whether or not this is cannot be determined; obviously our temptation is to think it is rather fake.
3. I think there needs to be a wider discussion about the use of dance in worship, just as there was for music in the early days of the church that was revisited seriously during the Reformation and counter-Reformation.
Look, don’t get me wrong-this makes me sick to watch. I don’t want any part of it. I have to wonder what theological adventures went along with this liturgical adventure. But as my great-grandmother once said…
“To each his own, said the old lady as she kissed the cow.”
Randall
Well y’all are taking this cool eucharist rather calmly. Rather too calmly, I think. Part of the reason for having a holy place and a holy time is that we then become more likely to find God in the everyday time and place. Yes, I know there is a danger that we ‘lock God up’ in the sanctuary, but that is always part of the challenge to our Christianity: to take our faith into the world and everyday life. If we have rock eucharists etc it seems to me that the danger is that we lose the sense of the holy. Everything become ordinary: the sanctuary simply another auditorium. And because there is no dedicated space for recollection, we are spiritually the poorer.
Cyprian,
We didn’t see enough of the video to determine whether Jesus was thrown out of his own Communion service (an absurd statement to begin with). But I don’t think the Zydeco Mass and the Goth Eucharist are of the same species, which was my point to Phil. The Zydeco Mass seems to be ‘inward’ focused rather than outward, and, as such, can’t really be compared to the Goth Eucharist, which by definition is outward looking.
Further, I’m not convinced that Goth Eucharists are as alienating as you suggest, particularly if you’re already in the goth subculture to begin with, and seems to be succesful… For the goths. It’s not like there’s a whole riot of young people looking for lace and birettas at a traditional, Sunday morning service, either. The Goth eucharist at Cambridge and at Coventry (which is my diocese) are in the process of forming actual, real, worshipping communities that aren’t gimmicky in the slightest.
My wife and I watched it this morning…we both had the same immediate thought. It reminded us of pentecostal worship we’d witnessed as children, with dancing and peppy music. However, neither of us felt a desire to be part of it. To me, it seemed affected and tacky. I felt uncomfortable with the couple who made a point of dancing in the sanctuary…and really uncomfortable with the use of feather boas and crowns as vestments. To me, such worship is appropriate in a different setting…in the parish fellowship hall, maybe. I suppose it’s nice to try something different, and to reach out to folks who wouldn’t normally find much joy at a TEC parish, but I also think that something like this would upset the more traditional members of the parish. A setting other than the nave and sanctuary of the diocesan cathedral would probably make it all right. But then, I really don’t know what goes on in San Diego…maybe everyone there felt okay with this.
The goth “subculture” isn’t a real subculture, because there’s no culture to it. It’s an inward-looking, self indulgent group of kids who dress the same and hang out in the middle of Edinburgh bothering neds. There aren’t any goth philosophers, no goth statesmen. My goodness.
And let’s not forget Grace Cathedral, San Francisco complete with altar/adoration foci of the various religions.
Nor forget the Washington National Cathedral led by John Chane. Ashamed of the Prayer Book. Extracting the Gloria in Excelsis. Placing the Choir as the backdrop behind the altar – obscuring (oddly?) the reredos of Jesus enthroned and the saints who offer their lives to Him.
It’s a bit unfair to compare the last liturgy of Epiphany with the first of Lent. Still, I wonder about the whole “decently and in order” issue.
One thing I’ve noticed over the years is a considerable turning away from solemnity. I wouldn’t say it has been rejected, but there is definitely a strain of anti-serious, anti-solemn, festival liturgical style out there. I keep wondering what this means, and I have yet to come up with any answers.
re 23: You’ll have to take up obscuring the Majestus with Frohman. The reason they made the crossing altar is because it has never been possible to see the reredos clearly, or even much at all, from the nave. The combination of the elevation change at the choir, the screen, and the (deliberate) kink in the building at that point all combine to make the right side of the west gallery about the only place you can actually see the high altar from, outside of the choir. All of that was determined a very long time ago– certainly no later than the fifties. Frohman simply didn’t care whether you could see from the nave, I suspect because he was building a medieval building, and they didn’t care either. At any rate the crossing altar was already in use in the later days of Walker’s reign, if I remember correctly. You can’t blame everything on Chane!
Any one who is interested in learning more about the Christian Goth movement will be blessed by visiting this [url=http://www.christiangoth.com/]web site[/url]. It’s not all ‘doom and gloom’.
Their statement:
The Gospel message is simply this: Jesus will forgive all your sins, if you’ll come to Him humbly – laid down at His feet and say: You’re the Lord and I’ll follow You the rest of my life on Earth, so I can have the rest of Eternity with You and the Glory of Your Father.” Keith Green
ChristianGoth.com’s mandate is to preach the Gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15), and it is the Gospel that is the “power of God unto salvation” (Romans 1:16). Christiangoth.com is for everyone, not just those who consider themselves Christian and goth. ChristianGoth.com ministry gives all the glory and honor to God – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
There is another site devoted to ministry to Goths called [url=http://www.thefirstchurchofthelivingdead.com/openingpage_wrkfrms.htm]The First Church of the Living Dead[/url]. They take as their mission text [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20&version=47]Galatians 2:20[/url].
I was not terribly shocked by this. But then, I’ve been to St. Gregory of Nyssa in SF. They dance every Sunday (it’s just more of a Greek circle dance).
The balance and tension between joy and reverence has always been a problem for the Church. There are times and places for both. A priest I know (much more in the St. Vincent’s tradition) once said, “If people really realized what was happening in the Eucharist they’d be bouncing up and down in their seats”. The line between reverence and staidness can be thin, so can the line between festive joy and bacchanalian exhibitionism. Most Anglicans tend toward the former, but ours is a tradition of propriety and respectability. If we party it consists of, in the words of Professor McGonagall, “well mannered frivolity”.
C Wingate’s analysis is correct. I agree with your distaste for the changes made at St Peter and Paul, but those changes have been made at most of the English cathedrals, regrettably.
If you want to raise concerns about how the “gathered community” emphasis on worship has led to various abuses and poor decisions (I think the “nave altar” has drawbacks, but it isn’t the worst thing), that is perfectly legitimate. This video, along with Eu2charist, are far more problematic, though.
Ministry to Goths? “Goth” is an affected identity! A genuine ministry to goths would dedicate itself to snapping these adolescents out of the self absorbed and pretentious outlooks they have.
I’ve taken a look at the website, and I find very little to disprove the argument that goths have nothing in common besides a way of dressing and a gloomy personality.
re 27: St. Greg’s used to have a greatly detailed walk-through of their liturgy on their site. It’s gone now, but they still have a lot of resources which can help you to get an idea of what they do. They are an extremely special case, as they have a building that is designed around their unique practices. It’s extremely intentional and thought-through, even if you don’t like the intentions or the thinking. (The scripts they use for their liturgies are incredibly detailed– a tell-tale sign of lingering Anglicanism.) The mindset is completely different from the “if we put a bank in the sanctuary it’ll make us cool” brand of liturgical deviancy; they are carrying through a project in a genuine alternative liturgy, with all seriousness, and the thought put into it shows. I wouldn’t do things they way the do it, for the most part, because if nothing else the bipartite building doesn’t work for me. But I think there’s stuff to be learned from them; they are someone you can have a serious disagreement with.
Such a pathetic attempt to be relevant. Airheads, all of them. The forced informality and casualness of both clergy and laity at the Zydeco Mass approaches impertinence and insouciance concerning the Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist. I simply don’t believe that those people dancing, prancing, and vamping are doind so because they really are feeling joy at the Presence of Jesus on the altar, or even at the celebration of the “communal meal”. By the way, such an attitude is partially sanctioned by the overemphasis on the communal celebration of the “meal”, so favored by certain liturgists. If the mass is not primarily a partaking in, and offering of, the eternal Sacrifice of our Lord, and worshipping Him in his Presence and joining with Him in communion, then the other and less essential parts of it are ushered into prominence.
By the way, also just plain embarrassing. The Church is made to appear as lacking gravitas with this kind of stuff. I also agree with some commenters that praise bands and performer-led worship services popular in certain sections of the Anglican, Lutheran, and RC churches also tend to foster the same attitude, and are also, boring.
About a third of the way in I closed the video unable to take any more. I found myself making the sign of the cross as I did so. There is a place in life for partying. And it is not in the sanctuary. Seeing the large audio speakers I wondered if this was a sign of the influence of Matthew Fox, who has lately been promoting techno raves as the latest thing in spirituality.
I’d say that you-tube video of St. Paul’s San Diego gives new meaning to the phrase “holy sh**”
The early Christians worshipped in homes, hid in catacombs, held their Eucharistic feasts in former pagan temples and public judicial halls. I’m sorry I can’t get worked up about this, but transmuting personal taste into Godly command isn’t particularly Christian. Is there any other place more worthy of partying than the sanctuary? Where we find new life in Christ? Where we confess our sins and are aboslved by virtue of his atonement? Where we as a community join are taken to heaven and are made present with our loving Creator? I fail to see the problem.
I don’t really have a problem with the music in the cathedral or with the dancing. You music is culturally appropriate for southern Louisiana, and dancing is a part of worship for many non-Western churches. Go to an African Pentecostal service and you will see much more spirited dancing.
The difficulty ofr me is this: to hold a Cajun service in southern California becomes a gimmick rather than a true outreach or an indigenous cultural expression of the worship of the local people. I don’t recall a large expatriate Cajun population in San Diego, but I could be wrong.
Although I don’t have any hard data, I do know that of the several U2 Eucharists that I am familiar with, they have ended up being gimmicks that drew a good number of people for an event, but which did not really bring in new people to the congregation. Seems I have heard the same complaint about Billy Graham’s Crusades. Hmm.
I will not otherwise fuss at an attempt to reach people with a Zydeco service. That is a noble attempt to reach the unreached. I don’t think that King David’s wife Michal would have liked it much, though.
Neal — I agree with you. However, most if not all the folks just looked like aging baby-boomer long-time Episcopalians thinking that they look cool while, er, “dancing”. A more forced, weird scene I have rarely seen.
It would be a bit like me and a friend going up to a Harlem street corner and fancying that we would appeal to the masses by showing off our break-dancing skills, little knowing that 1) we can’t break dance, 2) nobody cared [except for the throng that gathered in amused horror], and 3) breakdancing is out of date now.
Sarah, I also agree with you. No surprise.
As I watched the clip I imagined how awkward those folks must have felt. Imagine their kids watching this and saying to them, “You did [i] what [/i]?”
Yeah, to clarify, I was primarily referring to the priests and deacons wearing mardi gras masks and pink boas over their vestments. I’m not a hard-liner on worship “style,” but music aside, this was a raucous costume party and liturgical confusion.
I must admit…
1) It appeared displaced, culturally (i.e., in southern Louisiana I’d be much more appreciative) and awkward;
2) It was liturgically messy. At least in appearance.
But I find no other argument against such a celebration.
Something I learned along the way. Attempts to be “cool” by the “uncool” will only confirm the “uncool” person’s lack of coolness.
I am a nerd (and a professional nerd by the way). The San Diego service strikes me as an “uncool” congregation trying to be cool.
I like St. Vincent’s much better because they are confortable with who they are liturgically. I also like good evangelical worship with cassocks and surplices and little or no manual acts. I also enjoy good charismatic worship with dancing and hand raising.
Good Anglican Worship is good worship when it knows who it is and Whom it worships. It does not need gimicks or tricks such as “U2charists” or “clown liturgies” or “Zydeco Liturgies” or “rave liturgies.” All Anglican Worship needs is to understand Whom it is worshipping.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
“I don’t think that King David’s wife Michal would have liked it much, though.”
But Jezebel sure does.
Phil,
I think you’re being too hard on yourself. I’ve been in parishes that have done similar ‘themed’ Eucharists (including a Halloween one where the altar party was in Star Wars garb); more times than not, it was less an ‘outreach’ or evangelistic thing (come see how cool we are) and more of a ‘let’s celebrate the life God has given us together.’ Were there visitors there? Certainly, but that wasn’t the main focus of the evening. I’d guess that the St. Paul’s zydeco mass is in the same vein.
I’m a youthworker; I work in a CofE school and parish in the midlands, and I agree that gimmicky events aren’t the way to go about doing evangelism, particularly with teenagers. Relationships are much more important than being ‘relevant,’ in whatever condition you find yourself in. I just don’t think that this is one of those ‘gimmicks.’
How is this stuff any different from the dancing, costumed liturgical dancers, pop-praise band, and swaying priests around the altar in the CANA and AMIA parishes throughout the land? NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL!
If it “works” for conservatives, why not for liberals? CANA can cater to the baby-boomer culture, San Diego can catered to the Zydeco fad. (No offense intended: If this mass were in N.O. it might be culture, in SoCal it is just this year’s fashion statement.)
Isaac, I’m a young Anglican myself, and I’ve seen some wacky stuff in my time, particularly when I lived in the US but I also recently saw an advert for a “Goth Eucharist” outside a church in Cambridge. This YouTube video is a fantastic example of why young people are completely disillusioned with the more eccentric elements of Anglicanism. You’re right, relationships are the key, and the primary relationship that is built at mass on Sunday is the relationship between the believer and Jesus. The service in this video surgically removes Jesus from any part in the communion.
This service is so far removed from anything that would have happened in the early church it’s silly.
It makes for good TV though.
To see the extent of the ‘infection’ in TEC, read the two posts on Stand Firm about a third Cathedral by Anglo-Catholic-Jihadi in Minnesota here: http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/2054/
RazorbackPadre, you’re absolutely right, there’s no difference. They’re all equally absurd.
Just a couple of questions:
1. I have gone after those who would destroy Anglican musical heritage on this blog; having said that, there is nothing in the music itself (I can’t understand the text) that is inherently inappropriate. (Short of ideal, yeah, but not “bad.” My question is how or whether the music inspires devotion in the Augustinian model.
2. Obviously the “celebration” is culturally removed. Then again, we Episcopalians have removed the orderly worship of the British Isles and it is -completely- authentic for a lot of us. Whether or not this is cannot be determined; obviously our temptation is to think it is rather fake.
3. I think there needs to be a wider discussion about the use of dance in worship, just as there was for music in the early days of the church that was revisited seriously during the Reformation and counter-Reformation.
Look, don’t get me wrong-this makes me sick to watch. I don’t want any part of it. I have to wonder what theological adventures went along with this liturgical adventure. But as my great-grandmother once said…
“To each his own, said the old lady as she kissed the cow.”
Randall
By the way-I appreciate that St Vincent’s takes vestements seriously. My rector is from Ft Worth…regrettably, it didn’t rub off.
Well y’all are taking this cool eucharist rather calmly. Rather too calmly, I think. Part of the reason for having a holy place and a holy time is that we then become more likely to find God in the everyday time and place. Yes, I know there is a danger that we ‘lock God up’ in the sanctuary, but that is always part of the challenge to our Christianity: to take our faith into the world and everyday life. If we have rock eucharists etc it seems to me that the danger is that we lose the sense of the holy. Everything become ordinary: the sanctuary simply another auditorium. And because there is no dedicated space for recollection, we are spiritually the poorer.
Terry-
I’ve had to fight similar battle in my own parish and have gotten plenty excercised. I think its just more the calm voice of experience.
Randall
Cyprian,
We didn’t see enough of the video to determine whether Jesus was thrown out of his own Communion service (an absurd statement to begin with). But I don’t think the Zydeco Mass and the Goth Eucharist are of the same species, which was my point to Phil. The Zydeco Mass seems to be ‘inward’ focused rather than outward, and, as such, can’t really be compared to the Goth Eucharist, which by definition is outward looking.
Further, I’m not convinced that Goth Eucharists are as alienating as you suggest, particularly if you’re already in the goth subculture to begin with, and seems to be succesful… For the goths. It’s not like there’s a whole riot of young people looking for lace and birettas at a traditional, Sunday morning service, either. The Goth eucharist at Cambridge and at Coventry (which is my diocese) are in the process of forming actual, real, worshipping communities that aren’t gimmicky in the slightest.
My wife and I watched it this morning…we both had the same immediate thought. It reminded us of pentecostal worship we’d witnessed as children, with dancing and peppy music. However, neither of us felt a desire to be part of it. To me, it seemed affected and tacky. I felt uncomfortable with the couple who made a point of dancing in the sanctuary…and really uncomfortable with the use of feather boas and crowns as vestments. To me, such worship is appropriate in a different setting…in the parish fellowship hall, maybe. I suppose it’s nice to try something different, and to reach out to folks who wouldn’t normally find much joy at a TEC parish, but I also think that something like this would upset the more traditional members of the parish. A setting other than the nave and sanctuary of the diocesan cathedral would probably make it all right. But then, I really don’t know what goes on in San Diego…maybe everyone there felt okay with this.
Isaac, here’s the expression on my face:
:-O
The goth “subculture” isn’t a real subculture, because there’s no culture to it. It’s an inward-looking, self indulgent group of kids who dress the same and hang out in the middle of Edinburgh bothering neds. There aren’t any goth philosophers, no goth statesmen. My goodness.
And let’s not forget Grace Cathedral, San Francisco complete with altar/adoration foci of the various religions.
Nor forget the Washington National Cathedral led by John Chane. Ashamed of the Prayer Book. Extracting the Gloria in Excelsis. Placing the Choir as the backdrop behind the altar – obscuring (oddly?) the reredos of Jesus enthroned and the saints who offer their lives to Him.
It’s a bit unfair to compare the last liturgy of Epiphany with the first of Lent. Still, I wonder about the whole “decently and in order” issue.
One thing I’ve noticed over the years is a considerable turning away from solemnity. I wouldn’t say it has been rejected, but there is definitely a strain of anti-serious, anti-solemn, festival liturgical style out there. I keep wondering what this means, and I have yet to come up with any answers.
re 23: You’ll have to take up obscuring the Majestus with Frohman. The reason they made the crossing altar is because it has never been possible to see the reredos clearly, or even much at all, from the nave. The combination of the elevation change at the choir, the screen, and the (deliberate) kink in the building at that point all combine to make the right side of the west gallery about the only place you can actually see the high altar from, outside of the choir. All of that was determined a very long time ago– certainly no later than the fifties. Frohman simply didn’t care whether you could see from the nave, I suspect because he was building a medieval building, and they didn’t care either. At any rate the crossing altar was already in use in the later days of Walker’s reign, if I remember correctly. You can’t blame everything on Chane!
Any one who is interested in learning more about the Christian Goth movement will be blessed by visiting this [url=http://www.christiangoth.com/]web site[/url]. It’s not all ‘doom and gloom’.
Their statement:
The Gospel message is simply this: Jesus will forgive all your sins, if you’ll come to Him humbly – laid down at His feet and say: You’re the Lord and I’ll follow You the rest of my life on Earth, so I can have the rest of Eternity with You and the Glory of Your Father.” Keith Green
ChristianGoth.com’s mandate is to preach the Gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15), and it is the Gospel that is the “power of God unto salvation” (Romans 1:16). Christiangoth.com is for everyone, not just those who consider themselves Christian and goth. ChristianGoth.com ministry gives all the glory and honor to God – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
There is another site devoted to ministry to Goths called [url=http://www.thefirstchurchofthelivingdead.com/openingpage_wrkfrms.htm]The First Church of the Living Dead[/url]. They take as their mission text [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20&version=47]Galatians 2:20[/url].
I was not terribly shocked by this. But then, I’ve been to St. Gregory of Nyssa in SF. They dance every Sunday (it’s just more of a Greek circle dance).
The balance and tension between joy and reverence has always been a problem for the Church. There are times and places for both. A priest I know (much more in the St. Vincent’s tradition) once said, “If people really realized what was happening in the Eucharist they’d be bouncing up and down in their seats”. The line between reverence and staidness can be thin, so can the line between festive joy and bacchanalian exhibitionism. Most Anglicans tend toward the former, but ours is a tradition of propriety and respectability. If we party it consists of, in the words of Professor McGonagall, “well mannered frivolity”.
Choir Stall:
C Wingate’s analysis is correct. I agree with your distaste for the changes made at St Peter and Paul, but those changes have been made at most of the English cathedrals, regrettably.
If you want to raise concerns about how the “gathered community” emphasis on worship has led to various abuses and poor decisions (I think the “nave altar” has drawbacks, but it isn’t the worst thing), that is perfectly legitimate. This video, along with Eu2charist, are far more problematic, though.
Randall
Ministry to Goths? “Goth” is an affected identity! A genuine ministry to goths would dedicate itself to snapping these adolescents out of the self absorbed and pretentious outlooks they have.
Let me know more of your views AFTER you have examined the websites and talked to those in charge.
I’ve taken a look at the website, and I find very little to disprove the argument that goths have nothing in common besides a way of dressing and a gloomy personality.
Besides, any goth worth his salt would be way more into the latin mass cause it’s so cool and indecipherable.
re 27: St. Greg’s used to have a greatly detailed walk-through of their liturgy on their site. It’s gone now, but they still have a lot of resources which can help you to get an idea of what they do. They are an extremely special case, as they have a building that is designed around their unique practices. It’s extremely intentional and thought-through, even if you don’t like the intentions or the thinking. (The scripts they use for their liturgies are incredibly detailed– a tell-tale sign of lingering Anglicanism.) The mindset is completely different from the “if we put a bank in the sanctuary it’ll make us cool” brand of liturgical deviancy; they are carrying through a project in a genuine alternative liturgy, with all seriousness, and the thought put into it shows. I wouldn’t do things they way the do it, for the most part, because if nothing else the bipartite building doesn’t work for me. But I think there’s stuff to be learned from them; they are someone you can have a serious disagreement with.
Errr, “put a band in the sanctuary”
C.wingate (#33) – Freudian Slips are wonderful things, aren’t they!
🙂
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
I thought the Goths converted after they got to Spain.
Cyprian,
Right, because affectation, self-absorbtion and pretention are entirely absent from all forms of Anglicanism…
uh… they should be. Negative traits should be discouraged, not actively promoted.
Should be, but they are running rampant in TEC today.
I agree, and the first thing that should go are theme masses that make a joke of the Eucharist.
Amen!
Such a pathetic attempt to be relevant. Airheads, all of them. The forced informality and casualness of both clergy and laity at the Zydeco Mass approaches impertinence and insouciance concerning the Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist. I simply don’t believe that those people dancing, prancing, and vamping are doind so because they really are feeling joy at the Presence of Jesus on the altar, or even at the celebration of the “communal meal”. By the way, such an attitude is partially sanctioned by the overemphasis on the communal celebration of the “meal”, so favored by certain liturgists. If the mass is not primarily a partaking in, and offering of, the eternal Sacrifice of our Lord, and worshipping Him in his Presence and joining with Him in communion, then the other and less essential parts of it are ushered into prominence.
By the way, also just plain embarrassing. The Church is made to appear as lacking gravitas with this kind of stuff. I also agree with some commenters that praise bands and performer-led worship services popular in certain sections of the Anglican, Lutheran, and RC churches also tend to foster the same attitude, and are also, boring.