“I’m looking forward to the special celebration of the Holy Eucharist and seeing new and old faces,” Whiting said. “The whole day will be kind of fun.”
As the congregation looks back on its long history, Whiting said it also looks to the future and potential outreach programs. The church is currently working towards various projects including a literacy education program and a community closet.
“The Episcopal church, I think, is a wonderful blend of Catholicism and Protestant,” Whiting said. “We allow people to make up their own minds about just about everything.”
“The Episcopal church is very inclusive in terms of color, sexual identity and alternative lifestyles. One of the things we are going to work on is making this a safe haven for GLBT people.”
It sounds fun. And as an excuse to evangelize, it’s not a bad one. Good Shepherd’s ASA has slid from a peak of 80+ in 1998 to 40 in 2006. Membership has also declined. On the other hand, plate and pledge is up from around $55K to around $90K. The big drop happened after 1999.
My husband grew up at Good Shepherd, and my mother-in-law worshipped there her whole life. Membership suffered greatly after 1979, and the further dip in 1999 was doubtless due to difficulties surrounding the rector’s serious health problems. It was striking that at my mother-in-law’s memorial service in 1998, when we had a Rite I Eucharist as she would have preferred, the older folks who didn’t need prayerbooks were all giving Rite II responses. They told me afterward that memory of any other liturgy had been beaten out of them in the Western Michigan environment.
[blockquote]The Episcopal church is very inclusive in terms of color, sexual identity and alternative lifestyles. One of the things we are going to work on is making this a safe haven for GLBT people.[/blockquote]
There are two competing views of the Church. One view is that it is a hospital for sinners and the second view is that it is a sanctuary for saints. This seemst to turn the view on its head where this congregation (and too many in TECUSA) is becomming a sanctuary for sinners.
As an Anglican, I embrace both view. The Church is a hosptial for sinners where we go to be healed of our sinfulness by the grace given in Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion, Holy Matrimony, Unction, and Reconciliation. We are all sinners who need to hear to call to repent and turn from our sin and from our rebellion. At the same time, the Church is a sanctuary for saints where we come to be refreshed after fighting the battles and struggles in the world.
The one thing a church should and cannot be is a sanctuary for sinners were we come to be confirmed and accepted in our sin and made to feel that what we are doing is good and right and proper.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Amen, Phil (#3).
One of my former churches had a memorable motto: “Christ Church, a hospital for sinners, not a museum for wax saints.” That’s winsome and humble. But this priest has fallen for the usual TEC lie, calling evil good and sin righteous.
I hope this little church enjoys its 150th anniversary. They better. They won’t be around much longer if they continue in the “gay is OK” delusion, certainly not another 150 years.
This is the same diocese (Western Michigan) that was forced to sell its cathedral in Kalamazoo because both it and the diocese were declining so badly.
David Handy+
i seriously doubt if most glbt are feeling afraid and need shelter in the episcopal church. most churches in this denomination are turning to a different religion more closely aligned with unitarianism – all the great traditional services and old words cannot hide it for those who attempt not to be vapid pew slugs (i love this term but cannot take credit for it) but who seek the true word of God.
mousetalker #1: Of that financial increase, keep in mind that, at 3% inflation, it takes $15,000 of the increase just to keep up with price increases. So the increase is, from a functional rather than nominal view, more appropriately viewed as going from about $70K to $90K. To be fair, still a considerable increase, but not of the magnitude it appears to be in nominal dollar figures.
[i] Off topic comment deleted by elf. [/i]
Well, maybe the inclusive policy is not the reason for the decline. It’s a small town of less than 5,000. It could simply be that it’s being bypassed on the way to the beaches of Lake Michigan, even by the LBGT crowd.
A couple of days ago, I was researching a great, great aunt and uncle who helped found All Saints’, Saugatuck, a beach community only a few miles away from Allegan. Saugatuck is a well-known gay vacation destination, and I was sure that the church was no longer in existence, since the town has a permanent population of just over 1,000. The unupdated website gives no information about their theology at all, and only showcases their stained glass windows and retreat house, and their ASA is a little over 100. They’ve even grown a little in the last couple of years. The retreat house page does have an anti-discrimination statement.
# 8–Allegan has stayed steady at 4,500 to 5,000 for a long time, but its proximity to Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo and its beautiful Victorians have made it a popular bedroom community. Demographically, it is more prosperous than it was in the 60s and 70s. All Saints, Saugatuck, is a lovely church, but unless things have changed recently, I’m not sure they hold services year-round.
[i] Reply to off topic comment deleted by elf. [/i]
Well, e–x–c–u–s–e me! (smily here)
This — the mission outreach — is an exciting and challenging prospect for a small parish. Our prayers are with them and with Fr. Whiting.
A couple of other comments, however…
#2 frear, I hardly believe that Rite 1 was “beaten out of them in the Western Michigan environment.” Parishes all over the diocese use Rite 1, primarily for their early Sunday service with absolutely no complaint from the Diocese.
#4 New Reformation Advocate, your point stating the reason for selling the cathedral is simply not true.
#7 and #10, re: GLBT: not even close to amusing. Find something else to do.
Statisticians among us: ASAs, pledge amounts, membership numbers are trotted out whenever you want to prove that a parish, diocese, or The Episcopal Church is dying. Membership numbers are sometimes “cleaned up” by incoming rectors or interims — our parish, for example, will show a drop of about 60 over the past year — yet we had fourteen new members! That’s because of a “clean up” of parish records, not because numbers are down. And, too, even current stats can be deceiving — I, for example, am listed as an “online” commenter at SF because it’s a hassle to log in and log out — and yet I only visit the site perhaps once a day (that’s plenty). Also: remember that PSC +Schofield’s diocese also showed a decline in numbers. But perhaps there, too, parishes were cleaning up their records — I’ll pass on the stats and give them the benefit of the doubt.
#10 Nikolaus, perhaps you might talk to a new generation and the perception that so-called “orthodox” Christians are causing the death of Christian churches in general.
Padre Wayne–I am not being sneaky here–I just don’t know the answer. I have never heard of anyone selling a cathedral before. Why did they do it?
#13, Please note that I am [i]not[/i] speaking for The Episcopal Diocese of Western Michigan. This is just my observation:
The Cathedral Church of Christ the King was built a number of years ago under the leadership of an earlier bishop. The reasons for moving from St. Mark’s, Grand Rapids, are not totally clear.
The CCoCtK was not conveniently located (but had a large parking lot, so if people chose to attend they could), had no foot traffic (and very little driving traffic unless you count the Interstate). There are other fine Episcopal parishes in the area that predate the Cathedral.
The architecture was challenging (whether or not one [i]likes[/i] it is another matter…) in that office space (for the diocese and parish) was poorly located and not conducive to efficiency.
The Parish didn’t become self-supporting.
Those are some of the reasons — and the bishop and standing committee felt that money could be better used for mission. Good stewardship. The diocese, however, is not in decline (as suggested by #4, NRA).
Phil nailed it. Thanks.
bl
[blockquote] One view is that it is a hospital for sinners and the second view is that it is a sanctuary for saints. This seemst to turn the view on its head where this congregation (and too many in TECUSA) is becomming a sanctuary for sinners. [/blockquote] Phil, let us pray that those of us who have escaped from TEC do not spend too much of our time building hospitals for saints.
[size=1][color=red][url=http://resurrectioncommunitypersonal.blogspot.com/]The Rabbit[/url][/color][color=gray].[/color][/size]
David Keller — it’s certainly kind of Padre Wayne to list a variety of reasons why the church was unsuitable [other than, of course, the fact that the liberal theology the church promoted didn’t have a market.]
But to respond to your actual question — the cathedral had an ASA of less than a hundred and couldn’t support itself. So selling it for payment of various diocesan debts was a natural choice, since the facility was far far far far too expensive for the cathedral’s actual ASA.
This could have something to do with a typical program — mentioned on previous blog threads: [blockquote]”I also notice that the children’s choirs particpate in a “drum circle,†learning that “In Eastern mythology, the Dance of Shiva represents the rhythm of life. All aspects of life, from the vibration of atoms to the cycle of seasons, from the beating of a drum to a haunting melody, are rhythm.†They are taught by a musician whose “other job†is at the local Unity Church.
Seems to go hand-in hand with the architecture, labrynths (where “there is no dogma or doctrineâ€)… and predictable ensuing downward spiral.”[/blockquote]
There are a host of other delectable program samples on past threads if you’re interested.
I note also that, as is typical of so many progressives, the words “in decline” have been re-defined with fresh, new meaning! ; > )
In actuality the diocese of Western Michigan’s membership has declined by about 1500 from 1996 to 2006. The ASA in 2006 is only a little less than the numbers from 1996 — but from its high in 2001, it appears to have declined by about 500.
http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_410200843122PM.pdf
Of course, those numbers does not take into account the departure en masse of the folks at one of the Western Michigan parishes from November of 07 either.
So yes — the diocese is in decline, unless you are defining those words as progressive Episcopalian activists do. Then, it’s not in decline.
I read the article and all I can say is ‘isn’t that special?’
Sarah wrote…well, there’s so much there there…
The Cathedral was in a progressive city. One could assume, of course, that “the liberal theology the church promoted didn’t have a market,” but then we all know what happens when we assume.
I’ve commented elsewhere (#12 above) regarding statistics.
I expected a comment from Sarah. It’s not impressive, however.
I hope they’ve leased an outbuilding or two to accommodate the transgendered throng in Allegan.
Maybe, #19, the market for Christianity just isn’t that robust amongst the “progressives” who, as a group, seem to spend far more energy ridiculing religion (except for Islam) than practicing it.
But maybe we should just assume that it was the lack of foot traffic.
I’m terrible at internet research so I have no supporting links; however. I’m fairly sure that the true primary culprit was the fact that the cathedral had no supporting congregation. I think there is a term for it, but like the National Cathedral is was never structured as a parish with a congregation. As such it was always dependent on the fortunes of the diocese to cover its bills. We can all speculate about theology and waning fortunes. But IMO, it boiled down to rather ordinary issues of leadership and financial responsibility. It was not a good idea in the first place.
Church of The Advent of Christ The King in San Francisco is also celebrating its 150th birthday this year.
RE: “It’s not impressive, however.”
I was, of course, utterly shattered and distraught over your low opinion of my comment.
But then I perked up when I noted that you were unwilling to respond to my facts. ; > )
Ah — the typically sarcastic remark, Sarah.
The facts? I actually did respond:
1) Assumptions are assumptions are assumptions. Unless, of course, one is referring to the BVM.
2) For comments on statistics, please refer (I ask again) to #12 above.
3) There’s no reason to comment on your critique of programs at the late Cathedral. That the programs existed I agree. With your commentary and innuendo, as you might assume, I do not. The clergy and laypeople of The Cathedral Church of Christ the King were good, Christian, progressive folks. You may disagree with their theology — that is certainly your choice.
What sort of response are you looking for? To validate your innuendo and assumption that progressive programming and theology necessarily diminishes church attendance? [i]Prove it.[/i]
Q – Why is it that when a rector ‘cleans up’ the records in a parish the numbers rarely ever go up?
A – Because the decline over the last decade has been so great, that even modest increases in new members doesn’t swing the balance.
As Sarah pointed out, the numbers show a net loss of 1500 members in the last decade. If all the rectors in Western Michigan ‘cleaned up’ their records I would expect that number to be far worse.
The Diocese of Western Michigan didn’t just sell the cathedral, they have closed 2 other parishes this year, and have seen a number of other parishes that have been forced to go from full time clergy to 1/2 or 1/4 time clergy.
As a former member of the diocese and the cathedral committee that recommended the sale of the cathedral, I can say with first hand knowledge that the reasons for the cathedral’s failure to thrive were many, but the decision to sell the cathedral was simple: the diocese and parish didn’t have the funds to maintain the cathedral. Falling numbers in membership will do that. The cathedral and property was actually sold for less than it originally cost to buy and build…over 50 years ago.
I should also say that although the cathedral congregation was quite liberal (as Sarah guessed while recounting its programs), it is hardly unique to the diocese. If anything, the cathedral congregation was merely the most straightforward. Every other parish in the Kalamazoo area is equally revisionist in theology, they just hide it better. Every month, however, more folks in those churches are waking up, and leaving for other denominations.
RE: “1) Assumptions are assumptions are assumptions. Unless, of course, one is referring to the BVM.”
Huh? I made no assumptions, so the above statement is irrelevant. I merely noted possibilities, which is quite different from assumptions.
RE: “2) For comments on statistics, please refer (I ask again) to #12 above.”
I understand that you don’t care about statistics, and on the basis of that, of course, “The diocese, however, is not in decline.” That’s cool by me for you to state such things. ; > )
RE: “There’s no reason to comment on your critique of programs at the late Cathedral.”
I agree.
RE: “Prove it.”
No need — I have no need or interest in trying to influence your opinion, Padre Wayne.
RE: “What sort of response are you looking for?”
None at all from you. I merely noted my shattered distress over your perspective on the quality of my comment and then noted that you were simply unwilling to respond substantively to the facts. Your latest illustrates that as well.
But again, PW — I have no need or expectation of response from you. I simply answered David Keller’s question. I hope that he is satisfied with my factual responses to his query.
To validate your innuendo and assumption that progressive programming and theology necessarily diminishes church attendance? Prove it.
Excuse me while I butt in here, but this statistics discussion has been had many times here, and I thought both sides acknowledged that religious groups with clear doctrinal and moral standards tend to grow, while those lacking clarity tend to decline.
The weasel word is necessarily.
As always, the smaller the scale, the less you can draw valid inferences from stats. Individual parish numbers tell us almost nothing. Diocesan stats tell us more. That the national church has declined 30+ percent in 30 years or so is very telling.
Of course, multiple factors enter in. Charismatic leadership tends to draw a crowd. Glide Memorial Methodist in San Francisco is the classic example of this and I suppose Trinity UCC of recent note would be another. Of course, I submit that both of those congregations had clear doctrinal stands. The congruence of those doctrines with Christianity are beside the point (as with the Mormons). A specific program or ministry can stimulate growth. I saw a parish grow dramatically when they established a parish school. It happens.
Many factors can lead to decline, or at least stagnation. The Epis. Diocese of Fort Worth closed a parish in a growing suburb last year. From the newspaper accounts, it appeared to have some internal conflicts, I think over a parish school and a building program. I may be remembering wrong, but certainly that sort of thing can kill a parish, even if it didn’t in this case.
And as always, average Sunday attendance is a better indicator of health than membership. Wayne’s church with it’s newly clean registry may show 60 less members and not really be in decline. Similarly, he may have 16 new members and not be experiencing real growth if 16 people left.
It would be import ant to discover, if one could, how many congregations in TEC are much like this one. If this is the normative congregation, the Schori has a fairly strong base to work with, and t he defections will mean little. Now, it may be that attrition is leaching away congregations like this; such congregations may be children of the last century, Baby Boomers coming to their last rites – and not a moment too soon, if I may say so.
But how does one combat a church whose attitude is that all who choose to join, regardless of belief, are One of Us, a church of No Particular Standards? Or will such churches inevitably fail because their declared strength is in the long run weakness? And if the latter is true, then is not our best course to turn our backs and ignore them at all levels? Larry
I think a better way to state the conclusion is that “progressive programming” has been proven to neither maintain nor increase church membership and attendance.
Although this has gone somewhat off-thread, I thank Fr. Andrew and Words Matter for clarity.
Sarah, I didn’t say that I don’t care about statistics — I was only pointing out, basically, what Words Matter said so much better.
And WM — yes, we had 14 new members last year. No one left, praise God! But your comments are totally appropriate.
Jeffersonian, you’re right. One would need to look at individual parishes on a case-by-case.
Larry, our parish is certainly not a church of No Particular Standards. Nor is our Diocese, nor is our national church. You may not see it that way, of course.
Thanks to all for a spirited dialog!
No. 29 – I don’t think that Glide Memorial promotes definite theological standards. It’s very liberal, as a matter of fact. But, it is very definite about its program of social activism, and that attracts many. Like the St. Anthony Foundation and the Franciscan fathers at St. Bonifiace a few blocks away it ministers to the down-and-out and forgotten people in SF’s Tenderloin district.
Although it’s somewhat off-topic, let me address the pertinent issue of key factors that foster church growth or decline. Certainly, the message preached, taught, and lived is a kay factor, but there are LOTS of theologically impeccable congregations that are staganant or declining, and some liberal or openly heretical parishes manage to defy the dominant trends and grow.
The skill and winsomeness of the pastor is a huge factor, as is the quality of the programming (especially in a program size or program-driven church). How well the church matches the demographic makeup of its community is likewise clearly a contributing factor (lots of orthodox parishes have gone belly up when the ethnic makeup of the surrounding community changed radically).
Rick Warren would say that the key factor is church health, especially how well balanced a church is in terms of keeping all five NT purposes of the Church in a reasonable balance (worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry, and life mission). After all, we don’t have to tell our children to grow, they just naturally do, as long as they are healthy.
But I contend that the single best predictor of church growth or decline is where a church falls on the high expectation to low demand spectrum. Stirct and demanding churches with high expectations of members will always tend to outgrow low commitment, low expectation churches. For the simple reason that the expectations are so often self-fulfilling. You reap what you sow.
And that is one of the biggest challenges we face in building the New Anglicanism of the future in North America. Historically, Anglicanism, like other state church traditions, has had minimal expectations of members. It is not so in the Global South, and that’s one reason why Anglicanism in the GS is flourishing.
David Handy+
Passionate advocate of High Commitment, High Octane, High Performance, Post-Christendom style Anglicanism of a decidedly sectarian, Christ-against-culture sort. Now that’s the kind of “High Church” I like!