No doubt he can’t help it: the Rev. Mark Harris provides us with a textbook example of a liberal’s utter lack of logic in commenting for his readers on what has in fact happened today with the Diocese of Pittsburgh:
If it is the majority [that votes to change the Constitution], they will claim that “The Diocese of Pittsburgh” has left. That will be completely inaccurate. What will be true is that a majority of the delegates representing their parishes will have voted to leave. Not all the members of a parish voting to leave will do so, just as not all members of a parish voting not to leave will stay. Instead, PEOPLE will leave or stay.
(Bold added for emphasis.) It is woolly thinking such as this that has landed The Episcopal Church in all its current difficulties. The Rev. Harris sits on TEC’s Executive Council—just think how that body reacted to the proposed changes by various dioceses to their Constitutions: it passed a resolution proclaiming the changes to be null and void. Groupthink of the kind engaged in by Mark Harris and his liberal colleagues who currently hold the reins of The Episcopal Church has produced the current atmosphere of unChristian lawsuits, depositions and dunderheaded proposals for more legislation “to fix the problem.” (Hint to the liberals [which they will never get, but I’ll make it anyway]: If you are the problem to begin with, what do you think passing yet more loopy laws and crazy canons will accomplish? That’s right: more problems.)
God bless A.S. Haley, he’s relentless in his logic.
[blockquote]The Episcopal Church, like each of the Dioceses which make it up, is itself an unincorporated association. What does that mean? An unincorporated association is, first of all, not incorporated—that is to say, it is not a permanent legal entity, as is a corporation. Second, it is an association—which is to say that it is a voluntary assembly of people who choose freely to belong to it. While they are members, they must obey its rules. But if the association had a rule that “members who join us may never leave us,” that rule itself would not only be unenforceable in any court, but it would violate the very definition of an association, in an effort to turn it into a permanent, corporate-like entity.
Thus as members of The Episcopal Church, its Dioceses are free to come and go, as they choose. Nothing can legally be done to stop them from leaving, which they do by simply saying: “We are no longer bound by your rules; we no longer accede to your Constitution and Canons.”[/blockquote]
I don’t blame Mark Harris for gnashing his teeth and rending his garments…there is quite literally nothing left to do or say.
Heh.
But . . . the whole point of pretending as if the Diocese has not left TEC, and thus the whole point of the remaining Episcopalians violating the canons of The Episcopal Church by pretending they still have the remnants of the Standing Committee . . . is because TEC institutionalists [i]must have their precious[/i] — the property.
And if TEC actually followed its own canons . . . . thus admitting that a diocese had left TEC . . . the case for being able to acquire the property back would be weakened.
And The Precious is theirs. 815 must have Their Precious.
Folks, if a Diocese must form and chose to join the EC, then likewise it has the authority to decide/chose to leave the EC. Of course, the leadership of the EC will never accept this reality. Therein lies the opening one can drive a Mack truck through. I suspect GC09 will do what it can to close this opening…
#3 – Can a state choose to leave the Union once it joins?
#4 – Is TEC governed by the US Constitution?
Posted in another thread, and reposted here:
I doubt that the precedent of the Civil War would have any weight in a court making a decision on the legitimacy of the Diocese of Pittsburgh’s vote to disaffiliate with the General Convention. This is part of the reason why KJS’s recent actions against Duncan, Cox and Schofield were such pure folly on her part.
KJS has acted clearly in violation of TEC’s canons. As such, she has set the precedent that bodies within TEC have great discretion in how to interpret and apply canons. I am trained in law and I can say that my reading of the canons (and I am trying to be fair and objective) suggests that KJS blatantly and capriciously abused the canons when she deposed Duncan, Cox and Schofield (but especially Duncan). On the other hand, a canon that requires that a NEW diocese have an “unqualified accession†clause to TEC’s C&C;in order to be admitted into union, can NOT be seen in any reasonable way to prevent the diocese from revoking that clause and leaving.
Think of it this way – if I immigrate to the US and become a citizen, I take an oath renouncing my other allegiances and pledging allegiance to the U.S. without any intent of evasion. If some years down the road, I decide to move to Canada and renounce my US citizenship, would it make sense for the US government to refuse to recognize this and attempt to arrest me and throw me in jail? No. When you join a voluntary organization, you agree to be bound by the rules. That doesn’t mean you can’t later leave UNLESS the rules that you have agreed to abide by forbid it. And there is nothing in TEC’s C&C;which forbid leaving. It’s that simple.
So, how long will it be before Big Mama starts trying to pick off the parishes one-by-one?
Instead maybe she should use the money for world mission or pledge it to the Feds in order to bail everyone out of their speculating and bad credit…
DUH
I’m sitting here scratching the old noggin. So, according to Mark Harris, the Diocese didn’t leave because only the delegates voted in favor of the change? With this logic conventions cannot make any decisions that affect the wider body. My proposal then:
1. We don’t have to pay a Diocesan mission share as the majority of my parish did not vote for it.
2. I don’t have to use the 1979 BCP tomorrow. Same reasoning.
3. I can give up support of the MDG’s (by the way I don’t anyway). Same reasoning.
4. No national day of repentance. Same.
5. Women’s Ordination. Same
6. V.Gene Robinson–never happened. Same reasoning.
Did I miss any others?
Oh, I did miss two:
7. No authority for KJS. Same.
8. Our bishop has no authority over our parish and its clergy. Same.
“It is woolly thinking such as this that has landed The Episcopal Church in all its current difficulties” —A.S. Haley
Nor has that sort of thinking played well in secular courts.
Creighton (# 3),
[blockquote]
if a Diocese must form and chose to join the EC, then likewise it has the authority
to decide/chose to leave the EC.
[/blockquote]
No.
Under Article V of the Constitution a diocese joining TEC must agree to [b]unqualified[/b] accession to the Constitution and Canons. This means that a diocese joining TEC forfeits any previous independent existence it may have had.
The language of Canon I.7.4 (on property) refers to property being held in trust for The Episcopal Church and the “diocese thereof” in which the property is located. The use of “thereof” with “diocese” would not make any sense if the diocese is an entity that has an existence apart from The Episocpal Church.
Guessing he doesn’t apply the same logic to delegates votes at General Convention. When delegates at GC vote in a “new thing”, it must be overwhelmingly approved by every Episcopalian. Shalom idiots.
When a bunch of [i]individuals[/i] (to use the Presiding Oven Mitt’s emphasis) make certain decisions at General Convention… It’s the Holy Spirit leading the Church blah blah blah never mind what parishioners back home and individual parishes say or think.
But when a bunch of [i]individuals[/i] vote as they did in Pittsburgh…
It’s grand when they do it. Pathetic when we do it. Filthy double-standard hypocrites.