JH [Josie Huang]: “Just to be clear, the Episcopal Church defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman.”
BL [Bishop Stephen Lane]: “That’s correct.”
JH: “Can you address the contradiction of blessing same-sex marriages when that definition stands? Do you think the church is going to change its definition of what marriage is at some point?”
BL: “I think the church is having a broad conversation about marriage and about the church’s role in relation to marriage. Marriage is one of the few parts of our life where the clergy act as agents of the state and stand in on behalf of the state and sign the marriage licenses. But the church’s interest is in the quality of the relationship and the quality of the commitment between the partners and in asking for God’s blessing. So one of the questions that’s being raised by this whole matter is, is it the church’s role to marry, or is it in fact the church’s role to bless a marriage? I’m not willing predict and I’m not sure whether the church will change its definition, but we may change our understanding of how the church relates to marriage.”
Yes, this is about marriage among other things, and that is why it is such a big deal. Read it all.
No offense intended, but how can the orthodox possibly remain in a church that so glibly redefines the most basic human community; the family? Yes, it’s a question I’m asking myself these days on the eve of our own national assembly wherein the ELCA will probably do likewise, but I have to say reading this makes it clear to me this particular bishop is really no longer a Christian.
Brian
an ELCA pastor wondering where home will be …
Brian,
I do not like the posture using it is a complicated issue. I find this unacceptable. Either marriage is what it has been defined through Holy Scripture or it is not. I stand with the Traditionalists/Reasserters.
This bishop is doing what many are doing and playing word games. He cannot have it both ways…but tries like many do.
The Laity have let our bishops get away with leadership like this for years. Most clergy are in agreement. The Reasserting Priests in the EC are a minority and while they will continue to do what they can to witness to God’s Truth…the EC is what this bishop is presenting.
Many will have to face the question you raise. Is there any place in the EC for me (whether ordained or lay). Frankly, the one issue I see as completely ignored is that if the EC is trying inclusive and if the EC embraces full diversity why didn’t General Convention do something to provide a safe place for Reasserters in the EC.
Actions speak louder than words…and the actions of GC says this is the EC…and you are welcome if you wise up and get on board…otherwise you will be marginalized until you leave….
This is the hidden agenda of the Presiding Bishop and the leadership of the EC….if you make no place for those who disagree, they will leave eventually…and the mantra from the EC will be…well it was your decision, your welcome if you want to stay…
But that is not the truth now is it?
It’s truly sad to see the willingness of so many (who should know better) to kill real marrriage in order to make faux-marriage work. If they can only have same-sex blessings, and not marriage, then they’ll turn all of marriage into a “blessing”. So much for that old arguement about same-sex marriage being no threat to conventitional marriage.
I support civil unions, domestic partnerships and a way of formally blessing same sex couples that desire to live a sacramental life of sacrificial love as devoted disciples of Christ and deep adorers of God. LGBT folk in the church are often committed to growing in holiness while growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ Our Lord. I think sometimes we forget that these folk are in the Church because they love the Church and are striving to be good Christians. Many of them have made the Church their culture of life and have rejected a secular, party culture lifestyle of hedonism. The secular gay community often looks on these folk with the same disdain as they do Log Cabin Republicans. The gay subculture in the world tolerates LGBT Christians only as a means of gaining support from institutions for their civil rights. But Gay Christians, for the most part, have rejected the powerful and alluring secualr gay culture because they have found a new, richer and fuller life in Christ. The Church has been anti- popular culture in standing for and suporting the inclusion of LGBT folk long before the culture was convinced it was a good thing to do. The Church has been a counter-cultural force for LGBT folk long before it was trendy, popular or politically correct. If one looks at the root and history of the Churche’s involvmenet in changing attitudes it becomes obvious that indeed the Church helped change the culture regarding LGBT dignity and inclusion. Talk about capitulating to the culture just isn’t true froma historical perspective. The history of the MCC Church is a good place to start.
Why are we persecuting LGBT Christians for choosing Christ over culture?!
Having said this, I do believe that marriage is between one man and one woman.
The culture has now caught up to the bold and prophetic witness of so many churches who have, often at great cost, sought to speak truth to power and only now is the fruit of that witness coming into being.
Study the role of individual churches and church statements through the years and you will see that the Church (some, not all) has been fighting against the culture on this issue for some time.
If the Church gets smaller because it suffers the consequences of welcoming modern day Gentiles and Samaritans into the fold…so be it. Better to be faithful than successful.
Since when does state law determine what a Church calls Holy to the Lord?
What the right hand giveth…Does anyone doubt that this bishop’s skull will be added to Old Scratch’s floor?
archangelica,
Not sure why you’re using, “IF” the church gets smaller because … well .. the church “IS” smaller.
As per welcoming Gentiles and Samaritans … I leave it to others to point out the obvious misunderstanding of the historical contexts of their conversions, particularly the Gentiles, many of whom turned from their sexual behaviors once they became Christians. That your denomination and soon mine have little desire to call individuals to repentance, well … there’s a reason it’s called heterodoxy. And yes, your “side” won in TEC and your church is falling apart by the numbers.
I sounds like you interpret this as a good thing, the collapse of your church. IMHO, it’s almost like the Holy Spirit’s hand is against TEC.
Hmmm ….
The “blessings” have begun in Iowa, at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Council Bluffs. The event was anticipated in a story on AnglicansUnited back in June:
http://www.anglicansunited.com/?p=2657
One of my vestry members at St. David’s Anglican Church in Durant was invited – as she was connected by friendship to one of the two men. She reports from someone who attended that it looked pretty much like a wedding, complete with Eucharist. Not sure what verbal gymnastics the rector used in the pronouncements.
Let’s be clear, it’s simply duplicitous and really tantamount to lying to call this anything other than a blessing of a marriage, liturgically speaking. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Really sad.
Fr. Darin Lovelace+
St. David’s Anglican Church (ACNA)
Durant, Iowa
Meant to excerpt the following from the AnglicansUnited story:
The church in Council Bluffs that Mike Yowell, 53, and Hersh Rodasky, 58, attend also has an official policy against priests signing marriage certificates for same-sex couples. But the rector at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church has agreed to do a “blessing ceremony†that will be almost exactly the same as a wedding, with minor alterations in wording.
This has triggered sharp division within the St. Paul’s congregation. The Rev. Tim Vann, the rector, said some at St. Paul’s are jubilant that gays can marry; some are unhappy. “Everyone else is in the middle, thinking through what marriage means,†Vann said. “In spite of it all, they care about Hersh and Mike.†(end quote)
Of course, there’s no other way to “care about Hersh and Mike” than to “bless” their “marriage”.
Darin+
archangelica,
I have appreciated your honest reflections on these postings from time to time, yet I confess I don’t quite understand your identification of sexual behavioral choices with the classification of “Gentile” or “Samaritan.” These two categories, biblically speaking, were categories of birth – individual men and women were born to Gentile or Samaritan parents. Through Christ Jesus, all are welcome to enter God’s Kingdom – Jew or otherwise. However, it’s a misreading of the New Testament witness to suppose that one’s ELIGIBILITY to enter the Kingdom is the same as one’s CHOICE to enter the Kingdom. Choosing to be a disciple of Christ means saying “yes” to Him and “no” to sin. As a natural-born citizen of the United States, and over the age requirement, I’m eligible to be elected President. That doesn’t make me President.
If you’re making the claim that sexual behavior is determined by birth/genetics, you’re on really thin ground. As you probably know, identical twin studies have been nothing but inconclusive on the matter (and of course, if there were a true genetic link, identical twins would both be “gay” if one was). The best analogy, still, is to alcoholism. There may be a combination of factors (genetic and environmental) leading one to misuse alcohol (a behavior). Misuse of alcohol may be self-destructive and destructive of relationships and families. Yet, any Christian with a heart of compassion seeks to help the alcoholic find healing. We do not “bless” their behavior, because we believe it not best for them and those around them. We may accept their tendencies (subsitute ‘sexual attractions’) as a reality for them, but we seek to help them live with these tendencies in a way that helps fulfill their God-given potential and purposes. This probably means avoiding alcohol (refraining from the behavior).
Naming sinful behavior as that worthy of God’s blessing is simply spiritual double-speak, and more than that – condeming people at the same time you profess to bless them. How can any Christian minister do this in good conscience? Except that it “feels right” to do so.
This is the same problem with TEC’s “Baptismal Theology”. Distilled down, the point seems to be that once one is baptized, there is magically removed any necessity to conform to Kingdom living. Completely inconsistent with the biblical message. Completely consistent with a self-centered view of human fulfillment.
Darin+
archangelica,
One last thing – and I’m done for today – you say that you wish to find a place for people who are “deep adorers of God.” This is problematic to me. Either God has, or God has not, revealed what God desires for human living. In the matter of human sexuality, the biblical witness is crystal clear. If you are a “deep adorer of God”, you will conform your life accordingly! You will not adore God on your terms, but on His. I could say I’m a “deep adorer” of my wife, and then go off and have an affair. Would my wife accept my “deep adoration”? She would surely define the term differently – and HER definition would be the one that mattered.
Darin+
Looks like more than “broad conversation” going on at the now-laughably-named St. Paul’s, Father Darin. Perhaps we ought to let the good bishop whose remarks are the focus of this post know so he can be more accurate about what is going on in his so-called “church” these days.
Jeffersonian,
Bishop Scarfe (Iowa) is all-in with the equal marriage movement. Despite his direct statement at my former employer (St. Paul’s Episcopal in Durant, Iowa) that he would be “the first in the House of Bishops to defend ‘marriage’ as one man and one woman”, he’s ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater. All because the only way to be pastoral is to give in.
Darin+
Actually, I was referring to Bishop Lane and how he’d be shocked, shocked to find gay marriages going on in TGC today, but I’m betting it’s a six-a-one kinda thing. Any bishop who says there’s not is either a fool or a liar.
Right – I caught your reference. And I imagine he’d say that since the Prayer Book and the canons say marriage is one man and one woman, there can’t be anything else going on except for “generous pastoral response.” Reminds me of 1984: Some animals are more equal than others.
Darin+
There were 100,000 signatures submitted to the Sec of state tp [;ace the invalidation of this law on the Nov. Ballot. Only 55,000 are required. These were gathered in four weeks. There is at present a very strong chance that LD 1020 with be invalidated.
MOreoever the bishop is laboring under a fundamental confusion. The state should NOT have the power to marry because marriage is a spiritual matter, religious in its best sense of the word, and the First Amendment demands that the state stay out of this issue. Only religious institutions have the power to marry not merely bless, but actually marry. Marriage is not a business contract, it is a sacrament.
Let the state continue to have the power to establish civil partnerships; this is inside their jurisdiction. On the other hand, TEC can marry however many, of whatever gender or species, it desires, and only the church canons can stop such bizarre combinations.
Maine has become overwhelmingly Democrat and blue, but the forces against ssm run deep and wide. And if Maine can turn ssm “civil”marriage down, so can any other state, and it is this message we hope we will be sending to the rest of the US. Larry
#11
There are many homosexuals at most of the anglo-catholic shrine churches i.e. St. Clement’s in PA, St. Mary the Virgin in NYC. These gay folk belong to the Society of Mary and regularly pray the rosary as a group in church, attend daily mass and evensong, pray parts of the Divine Office, participate in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and use the old St. Augustine Prayer Book with many beautiful and orthodox devotions. These folk go to confession and serve on the altar as acolytes and many, many other acts of service and devotion.
Even if one were to say that active homosexuality were a sin (and I do not), surely homosexual Christians such as these are growing in sanctification?
If God chose and used Rahab for his glory than he can and does dwell in the redeemed if still sinful hearts of our homosexual brothers and sisters who walk, even if with the limp of sin, in the Way of Jesus as best they can with the graces given to them.
Even Courage (the RC LGBT spirituality group which promtes chastity) affirms this. There are holy homosexuals living for Jesus with the light that they have.
It amazes me that reasserters have no ministry, in an Anglican context, to support homosexuals in any way. When and if this ever changes and Anglican churches host and support groups like Courage then I will believe their talk of loving the sinner but not the sin. If the ACNA is serious about being welcoming but not affirming then there should be ACNA sponsored ministries in ACNA churches. I know about Exodus and other like groups but those are for evangelical protestants and can not fully minister to the Anglican homosexual. I predict that an Anglican version of Courage will never happen and so while AA members may be invited and welcomed to use the church facilities there is nothing for the Anglican homosexual. Why is this? Why is nothing pro-active done to reach out to the homosexual community when it is the “presenting problem” in current Anglican strifes and schisms? The silence is deafening and shameful.
The Roman church created Courage as a pastoral response to Dignity. I challenge the ACNA to prove their love for the homosexuals and go and do likewise.
#17,
Your challenge is accepted – and as ACNA is barely a month old, perhaps you can withhold judgment for awhile.
Anyway, there are such ministries in place among Anglican churches – Mario Bergner’s Redeemed Lives Ministries readily comes to mind for me.
Darin+
#18
Redeemed Lives Ministries is an equipping ministry that teaches pastoral care of the homosexual. Individuals (mostly clergy) attend conferences and workshops or order teaching material. Good enough. There are no links on the site to any churches using the materials to which the hurting homosexual is invited to experience spiritual support. The standard links to evangelical protestant ministries are provided for this.
The ACNA is barely a month old but the “homosexual problem” has been with us for thirty years. Why have conservative Episcopal congregations offered no pastoral response long before ACNA was formed?
archangelica,
I am not in a position to defend “conservative Episcopal congregations” about their lack of response to this particular issue. Nor am I of a mind to suppose that the “homosexual problem”, as you put it, has been at the forefront of pastoral issues that most congregations have dealt with until recent times – when organizations such as TEC have forced the issue onto the “unsuspecting” Mrs. Murphy in the pew. Strictly speaking, the “homosexual problem” is much older than thirty years – Paul addresses it in Romans 1.
The fact that Redeemed Lives Ministries has no links to churches on its website is not exactly proof positive that the effect of Fr. Bergner’s ministry is isolated. In the same vein, just because not every TEC parish has an Integrity chapter may lead to no particular conclusion about the intentions of clergy and lay leadership to support the mission of Integrity within TEC.
I agree that ACNA and others (including those remaining in TEC who are inclined to agree with a biblical view of human sexuality) must present a positive and biblical view of human sexuality. That may take many forms, including but not limited to helping those with homosexual tendencies to deal with those tendencies in a godly manner. I believe JPII’s Theology of the Body is a good place to start, and I plan for my part to encourage the ACNA to consider it as a basis for an Anglican program.
I have heard directly from the mouths of ACNA leadership that the first step is repentance – repentance of failing to do exactly what you are highlighting. That will, I believe, lead to positive steps you are also encouraging in the way of pastoral care for those living with same-sex attractions who are choosing to act upon them according to cultural norms rather than Christian and biblical ones.
Darin+