St. Augustine says that “it was necessary for Jesus to say: ‘I am the way, the truth and the life’ (John 14:6) because once the way was known, it remained to know the goal” (Tractatus in Ioh,, 69, 2: CCL 36, 500), and the goal is the Father. For Christians, for each one of us, hence, the way to the Father is to allow ourselves to the guided by Jesus, by his word of truth, and to receive the gift of his life. Let us make our own St. Bonaventure’s invitation: “Open, therefore, your eyes, lend your spiritual ear, open your lips and dispose your heart, so that you will be able to see, hear, praise, love, venerate, glorify, honor your God in all creatures” (“Itinerarium mentis in Deum,” I. 15).
Dear friends, the commitment to proclaim Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth and the life” (John14:6), is the main task of the Church. Let us invoke the Virgin Mary so that she will always assist the pastors and those who in the different ministries to proclaim the happy message of salvation, so that the Word of God is diffused and the number of disciples multiplied
Invoke Mary? To what end? And her power is….? Larry
Larry, if you believe in the intercession of the Saints, then the answer is self-evident. If not, why comment?
From the question in #1, I can only assume that Larry is Protestant and doesn’t believe in the intercession of the saints like Catholics and most Anglicans do.
Since when is believing in the intercesssion of the Saints essential to being an Anglican? The notion that somehow Mary intercedes with God is so silly it’s hard to refute. And that’s the point of #1, to point out the absurdity of the notion that Mary, dead, has any power or effect. (She had little enough alive. She is Jesus’s mother, nothing else. She gave him his humanness, which is essential, but this is neither difficult nor demanding. Even Christ turned his back on her.) Nothing in the gospels gives her any of these mythical powers that Mariolatry assigns to her.
Among the many reasons that stand as the cause of the death of the churches is the mist and fog of superstition that time and an overzealous piety have surrounded Christian practices. If I had my wish, I would find a sun strong enough to dispel it all. And right up there is the notion of intercession, as if God were a judge who applied the law as it was presented to him,, his judgment modified by arguments presented in court by Mary and the saints, who appealed to a jury of some sort. What 2 and 3 need to do is look at the evidence presented in this world before they reach conclusions about what happens in the next.
I am an Anglican, but that doesn’t mean that I swallow any nonsense as is presented to me in the name of faith. Larry
Larry,
I have a problem with Marian devotion as well, and I have never invoked her intercession or that of any of the Saints. That said, if we ask for others to pray for us, and we pray for others, why on earth wouldn’t we ask the Saints’ (and Mary) to pray for us as well? After all, they are already with the Lord? I freely admit that we don’t need any intercessor between us and Jesus, but if praying for others is Scriptural, there’s no reason to exclude the members of the Church Triumphant from those from whom we solicit prayers on our behalf.
#5 – that’s the position that the Catholic Church holds, and that the vast, vast majority of the saints throughout the ages have believed. It is not “Mariolatry” (that word is pejorative [and not in any dictionary I can find] and protests a practice that isn’t what the church teaches: that Mary is to be worshipped), nor is it anything to do with Larry’s second paragraph (judge, law, judgement, court, jury?).
Believing in the intercession of the saints is essential to being a Christian (James 5:16).
Larry,
I understand your concern, but no one has said that intercession of the Saints essential to being an Anglican. Prayer for others and love of neighbor, on the other hand, are essential.
If I asked you for your prayers, using the words of Pope Benedict, it might look something like this: “Larry, we ask that you pray for the pastors and those who in the different ministries to proclaim the happy message of salvation, so that the Word of God is diffused and the number of disciples multiplied.” As you can see, there is absolutely nothing unchristian about that prayer.
Your next objection might be concerning Mary’s death. Let’s look at it this way: If you asked me to pray for you, I most certainly would. If I died tomorrow and (by the Grace of God) went to be with the Lord, I would continue to pray for you because you are my Christian brother. This is the love and concern Christ has called us to have for one another.
A
A fair opening. So let’s start here: What does intercession mean and what is its purpose? Larry
Larry, If the Pope’s address had not included the request to invoke Mary would what he said otherwise still offend you?
Here is the problem many of us Catholics have when we get told over and over again that we always put Mary first. I counted in the Pope’s address 11 references either by name or title to Jesus Christ and only 1 reference to Mary.
Yet what does a non Catholic see when he reads the address? He sees Mary and immediatly points out this terrible elevation of Mary’s status in his non Catholic eyes? It is obvious the Catholic obsession with Mary has risen its ugly head again. The 11 mentions of Christ are not worth noticing.
Larry is right that there is indeed a lot of idolatry focusing on the BVM out in the world, but on a local folk level. The actual Roman theological position on the Theotokos is nuanced and Christocentric.
I for one have always thought of the intercession of the saints as acceptable but unnecessary. It is acceptable, as there is ample evidence that the Communion of Saints is a current reality (“Abraham rejoiced to see my birth” etc). I have also found it on occasion to be efficacious (one of the most profound prayer experiences I have had, was in asking the Holy Mother to pray on behalf of my mother, who was in some difficulty — a difficulty that had seemed intractable, but almost immediately began to find resolution. Coincidence? Perhaps, I don’t really know). But as we are enjoined to direct petition and intercession through Christ by the power of the Spirit, such invocation is not at all necessary.
In other words, the invocation of the Saints is truly adiaphora.
Not taking away from what anyone else here has written, but I find Alta Californian’s post very helpful, especially his first two sentences.
The difficulty many of us have is that while the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on BVM is, indeed, Christocentric, the widespread practice that we see does often veer towards something disconcertingly like idolatry. While I understand Charles’s reaction to the word “Mariolatry” as used by Larry (and applied to Pope Benedict), it’s not an inaccurate description of what one often sees on the popular level.
That’s the thorny path that many of us tread– somewhere between affirming Rome’s official teaching, and experiencing a gut-level reaction against what Marian devotion often looks like on the ground (i.e. when Mary begins to displace Christ as the centre of our worship and devotion).
Since when is Christian life about a checklist of doing only what’s “necessary”? This mindset stems from the “once saved, always saved” idea where you fulfill the minimum requirement to “get saved” and from then on, you’re all good. No need of intercession or confession or anything else because “you got saved!” (Mind you, I know that’s a gross oversimplification of actual Evangelical belief, but as in #11, it’s a mindset you see on the ground with Evangelicals all the time).
If the Orthodox and the Catholics both believe the Intercession of Saints (IIRC it’s also in the BCP), then maybe it isn’t something so easily dismissed as adiaphora?
Larry,
Intercessory prayer occurs when a person offers a prayer on behalf of someone else – plain and simple. I could ask you (or a saint) to pray for an ailing loved one or for a newly married couple. Sometimes the person knows that others are praying for them, often they may not. The fellowship we have in Christ is our communion – even if it is only partial.
The present Book of Common Prayer explains:
The communion of saints is the whole family of God, the living and the dead, those whom we love and those whom we hurt, bound together in Christ by sacrament, prayer, and praise. (p. 862)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church’s explanation is a bit more detailed:
A cloud of witnesses (par. 2683)
The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,(Cf. Heb 12:1) especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.”(Cf. Mt 25:21) Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.
Charles wrote,
[blockquote] “From the question in #1, I can only assume that Larry is Protestant and doesn’t believe in the intercession of the saints like Catholics and most Anglicans do.” [/blockquote]
I have news for you. The vast majority of Anglicans don’t believe in the intercession of the saints. The following is just one easily accessible example of Anglican teaching, but there are many more:
[blockquote] Article XXII
Of Purgatory
The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.
[/blockquote]
Some anglo-catholics do believe in what they call a “patristic” (as opposed to “roman”) doctrine of invocation to the saints, but there aren’t many even of these. Remember that most Anglicans don’t live in the west.
[blockquote] “#5 – that’s the position that … the vast, vast majority of the saints throughout the ages have believed.” [/blockquote]
No it isn’t, actually.
[blockquote] “Believing in the intercession of the saints is essential to being a Christian (James 5:16).” [/blockquote]
I have this radical suggestion – let’s actually read the verse! Here it is:
[blockquote] “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” [James 5:16] [/blockquote]
Nothing in there about “intercession of the saints” in the sense you mean. Mind you, since the scriptures define every single Christian (including those alive right now) as saints, then in that sense you could say that we hold to the intercession of saints every time we ask a fellow christian to pray for us!
Paula wrote:
[blockquote] “I counted in the Pope’s address 11 references either by name or title to Jesus Christ and only 1 reference to Mary.” [/blockquote]
I don’t think Larry was counting up references. The problem lies in what was said, rather than how many times it was said.
BXVI wrote that we should “invoke Mary”. Whilst I am not particularly worried about this (he is just one more church leader among many in the world, after all, and not very relevant to Anglicans), I can’t see any scriptural warrant for invoking Mary, and therefore I think it was reasonable of Larry to ask the question that he did.
Anthony in TX wrote,
[blockquote] “I could ask you (or a saint) to pray for an ailing loved one or for a newly married couple.” [/blockquote]
You could indeed. Since Larry and I are both saints (i.e. we are Christians) that would be in accordance with apostolic teaching. But if by “saint” you mean someone who is dead, then I have to ask – where is your support for that idea? Where do Christ or his apostles give even a hint that there is any efficacy in asking a deceased saint to pray for us?
[blockquote] “The present Book of Common Prayer explains: The communion of saints is the whole family of God, the living and the dead, those whom we love and those whom we hurt, bound together in Christ by sacrament, prayer, and praise. (p. 862)”
[/blockquote]
This passage is talking about “the communion of saints” which is quite different to “intercession of the saints”. The former was taught to us by Christ and his apostles, the latter wasn’t.
My apologies, in the last paragraph of my #17, I wrote “intercession”. I meant to write “invocation”, being the word used by Pope BXVI in the article.
Chris, I have to chuckle, as that is the first time I’ve ever been accused of being too Evangelical. What you describe is so far from my actual soteriology that I struggle to understand how you could arrive at that just from my use of a single word. Faith is absolutely not about doing the minimum necessary after “being saved”. I simply take a broad view on certain devotional practices.
Clearly the Communion of Saints is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith, and is stated so in the Nicene Creed. That the Intercession of the Saints has been an important part of Holy Tradition is also not in dispute. My problem comes either when someone like Larry attacks the practice, or militant Catholics require or overemphasize it. We can pray directly to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are commanded to do so, not only by our Lord himself in the Lord’s Prayer, but also by the teaching of the Epistles and the Church Catholic. We are also commanded to pray for each other. But I can’t think of any passage in scripture that commands praying to the Saints. Perhaps relying on scriptural authority is too Protestant of me. At the same time, I take a much higher view of Holy Tradition than do Larry or MichaelA, and perhaps that’s too Catholic. We do a lot of things that the 39 Articles find repugnant to the Word of God, like keep the sacrament in reserve (gasp). Prayer to the Saints is good, it is right, it is beneficial, it is efficacious. We can, and you might even say as the Pope does, that we should. But I do not believe it is a requirement for the Christian life. Is there a “checklist” of requirements for doing the minimum? Like you I think that is the wrong question. The Christian faith should never be about the minimum, but giving our lives over to His service and His Kingdom.
And if my may make a linguistic parse of my own, Anthony’s quote from the Roman Catechism is instructive. It says we “can and should”, not that we “must”.
“as that is the first time I’ve ever been accused of being too Evangelical”. Alta, that reminds me of the time on Stand Firm when an Eastern Orthodox believer insisted that I was a one-eyed apologist for the Roman Catholic Church! I think I suggested that Augustine’s view was to be preferred to Cyril’s on something or other, and off it went. Strange.