Now [for Episcopalians] the apt word seems “life support”.
The average Episcopal Church attendance dropped a staggering 23% in the ten year period between 2000 and 2010 (via Whispers) In 2010, just under 700,000 attended TEC Churches in the whole world.
In the Seattle area, (Diocese of Olympia) where St. Mark’s Cathedral still looms and KING FM has broadcast their lovely Sunday evening Compline for many years, average attendance in the whole diocese was 9,500. 9,500? I’ve worked in Catholic parishes with larger weekly attendance than that.
The Episcopalian Diocese of Quincy, IL attendance has dropped 71% and averages 363 people in attendance at 9 parishes. I’ve taught Called & Gifted workshops that were larger. No wonder they are openly talking about reuniting with the Diocese of Chicago (attendance: 12,925).
Is the proper adjective in this context Episcopalian? Or Episcopal?
It’s not really useful to compare RC and Episcopal (or Episcopalian, I never get it right) numbers. It’s not just a matter of scale, but of culture and social placement. I do think Ms. Weddell offers a point useful to all of us:
If we are serious about evangelization, we would far, far better look to the experience of our evangelical brothers and sisters. 49% of American evangelicals weren’t raised as evangelicals while Catholics have the second lowest number of converts of any American religious faith.
The comments under the article are remarkably helpful, in my opinion.
I read someplace that around 60+% of TEC members are converts, as are the clergy. Is that accurate?
To Sherry Weddell, and other Roman Catholics gleeful at the imminent demise of TEC: [i]quid rides? de te fabula narratur.[/i] The decline in attendance and affiliation among RCs is actually alarming, and that church seems to be experiencing a collective nervous breakdown. Every day brings stories that cannot inspire RCs to have confidence in their leadership; but absolute faith in their leadership is the essence of their church, and when that goes, so goes their whole show.
#3. An estimate of 60% converts in TEC seems too high, but let’s just say that the number of converts is something like a third of TEC membership. What do you infer from that? That the converts are the church’s problem? Do you think that the little blue signs shouldn’t say, “TEC Welcomes YOU” ? Should they say, “Even After Four Decades Here You’ll Still Be the Same Person You Were When You Walked In” ?
You might try to honor who and what people became in the lifetime of their church membership, and be less worried about where they worshipped when they were ten.
but absolute faith in their leadership is the essence of their church
No, faith in Jesus Christ is the essence of our Church. Check out the catechism, the lives of the saints, the writings of popes.
As to “gleeful”, perhaps you might read the entire article, which is a cautionary tale for Catholics. At least read the last bit which I quote above before engaging in detraction.
Sorry Charles52, I call it as I see it.
I read and have re-read the article. She sure sounds gloating to me when she cites,
“on a given Sunday, there are about 22 million Catholics in the pews in the US vs. approximately 657,000 Episcopalians. In other words, there are roughly 33 times as many practicing Catholics as practicing Episcopalians.”
The Roman Catholic Church requires explicit faith in the infallible papal pronouncements. Whether these are consistent with the mind of Christ has been a matter of dispute for centuries within and between the Christian churches. For RCs, what’s essential to their identity is a shockingly uncritical faith in what their leadership teaches. (Just ask the average Catholic about the [i]de fide[/i] doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. They will say they believe in it, but mostly they don’t really know what exactly it is.)
There was no detraction in my post.
I call it as I see it.
So do I. And I see detraction, if not slander.
Weddell’s point is that Catholics have a problem with evangelism and should be looking to evangelicalism, not the mainline/oldline protestant churches. Perhaps you are sensitive about the fact that your religion is dying at an appalling rate and I’m sorry for that. It doesn’t give you the right to misrepresent Weddell’s article.
what’s essential to their identity is a shockingly uncritical faith in what their leadership teaches.
That’s remarkably ignorant and shows that you have no knowledge of actual Catholic life. I might as well say that Protestantism requires explicit faith in your own individual religious opinions. The cliche is “a pope in Rome, or every man a pope”. To say that about protestantism is pretty much on a par with your claims about Catholicism. I suggest you read some Catholic blogs if you want to see some real theology.
JHP demonstrates a remarkable facility for whistling in the dark:
[blockquote] “The decline in attendance and affiliation among RCs is actually alarming, and that church seems to be experiencing a collective nervous breakdown. Every day brings stories that cannot inspire RCs to have confidence in their leadership; but absolute faith in their leadership is the essence of their church, and when that goes, so goes their whole show.” [/blockquote]
This is a very apt description of TEC! Furthernmore TEC is starting from a base of, what is it now, less than 2 Million members?
[blockquote] “She sure sounds gloating to me when she cites,
“on a given Sunday, there are about 22 million Catholics in the pews in the US vs. approximately 657,000 Episcopalians. In other words, there are roughly 33 times as many practicing Catholics as practicing Episcopaliansâ€.” [/blockquote]
Leaving aside the issue of whether the author is gloating (why does it matter?), isn’t this the question you should be asking yourself: “Is she right?”
I don’t know howthe Roman Catholic Church is faring (nor, since I am not Roman Catholic, do I care). But its obvious that TEC is faring very badly indeed. Its not just that the following figure is unarguable (it was accepted during debate in the TEC House of Deputies yesterday):
[blockquote] “The average Episcopal Church attendance dropped a staggering 23% in the ten year period between 2000 and 2010” [/blockquote]
Rather, it is that this staggering drop is an acceleration: TEC shrank by 44% from 1969 to date, so the rate of shrinking is increasing. But that is what happens when a church publicly treads on traditional values.
MichaelA, it’s hard for me to account for such an obtuse misreading of my original post.
I’m hardly “whistling in the dark” about the present crisis in TEC. [i] You yourself have responded to another post in which I say as much, as you ought to know.[/i] Everything which I offer here as a description of the Roman Church is apt, but is not true of our own church, imho.
The issue of the original author’s “gleeful gloating” is the whole point of my post: ‘why are you laughing? the story you tell concerns you’ is what the Latin epigram means! A Roman Catholic who is gleeful about the demise of TEC should look to the crisis in her own Church.
The attrition in RC membership may not yet be on the scale of TEC, but just wait … as the credibility of the Catholic Church’s leadership (both in Rome and more locally) becomes forcefully challenged by younger people, that church, the RC church, will find itself in the same quandry we face.
[i] what’s essential to their identity is a shockingly uncritical faith in what their leadership teaches. [/i]
“That’s remarkably ignorant and shows that you have no knowledge of actual Catholic life … I suggest you read some Catholic blogs if you want to see some real theology.”
Actually, Charles52, I spent 20 years of my life as a Roman Catholic, and I have now lived more than 30 years as an Anglican. My uncle was a Roman Catholic priest and my aunt a Roman Catholic nun. I have advanced graduate degrees and a doctorate (with honors) from the finest Catholic university in this country. I have taught Theology at two large, important Catholic universities. I have lived and studied and conducted post-grad research in Rome, at the Vatican itself. I have no need to read blogs to form my impressions of the Roman Church: my own experience of it is sufficient. Incidentally, my views are widely shared among other non-Catholics.
If you love the Catholic Church, it must be difficult to hear someone say of it that it tyranizes consciences and forces assent to doctrines that are man-made and unbiblical. Yet whatever may be the crisis of authority in my church, I believe that there is a reckoning coming for the Roman Catholic Church (for its own reasons), even if you will disagree.
So here’s what I meant to say in my original post. Don’t be too gleeful about what Newman called “the difficulties of Anglicans” : the decline and attrition in your own Church will be as sobering for you as our troubles are painful for us.
The only “glee” being expressed here is the delight you seem to have in the impending demise of the Catholic Church. See how easy that was? All I had to do was impute to you feelings and motives. I didn’t have to justify it. It’s my feeling, my experience reading your comments. Why listen to bishops and popes when I have feelings and experience to beat you with. Well, the obituary for the Catholic Church has been written many times, and the number of ex-Catholics and non-Catholics who think like you remains unimportant: truth is not a matter of majority opinion.
In our cathedral for Mass the other day I was sitting in the still silence and it struck me – not for the first time – that Catholics are bad people (me most of all) and the Catholic Church is a colossal failure. We really are sinners, up to and including Pope Benedict. But Jesus is Lord. He is the point of it all. I go to Mass to worship Him and receive his saving Grace.
You will not have noticed, but I limit my comments here to Catholic matters, and occasional social/political issues. So I was glad to read a comment on a purely Anglican thread by Paula Loughlin to the effect that as a Catholic, she cares about the Anglican decline because the loss of any Christian voice is a loss for all of us. Too bad you can’t emulate her charity and kindness. But I’ve seldom encountered an ex-Catholic who can, no matter how educated. Clearly you hate us, and you should consider what that hate will do to your soul.
Do you know Jesus? Seek Him! Find Him! You will find your hate for Catholics fade away as you know His love and the Hope he brings. Frankly, you will be too busy with Him to criticize other churches and misrepresent what people say or write. At least you won’t need to be offended by them.
Turn to Christ, the Son of the Living God. Your education will not save you. Your academic career will not save you. Jesus will save you.
To be clear:
jph misrepresents Sherry Weddell because she clearly states that she is addressing the Catholic problem. She opines that Catholic ought to look not to the mainline Protestant denominations, but to the evangelicals who are actually growing. Sadly, the Episcopal Church is the most dramatic of a denomination self-destructing. As one who spent 16 years as an Episcopalian, I find it very sad to watch this. I was formed in that tradition and have a great love what what is good in it. And that’s the closest I’ll come to commenting on Anglicanism.
Well, I was tempted to join the virtual cheering for the South Carolina folk (a great witness!) and, hang it all, now I’ve done it. 🙂
[Folks – may we encourage you to engage with one another with charity in what is an interesting discussion but which would be better if it remained focused with generosity on the thread issues rather than personalities of commenters – thank you – Elf]
[blockquote] “The attrition in RC membership may not yet be on the scale of TEC, but just wait …” [/blockquote]
It is not remotely on the scale of TEC. No other church is.
As I wrote above, I am Anglican so even if RC decline actually was on the scale of TEC, it would not be relevant to me. But it isn’t, so nobody has to worry – TEC’s decline is way beyond that of any other mainline church. The reason is not hard to see – decline is the natural consequence of liberalism.
Its not just Roman Catholics like Ms Weddell. Even observers in other Anglican provinces would be well advised to NOT emulate TEC!