On the 13th day of the trial of the Diocese of South Carolina vs. The Episcopal Church and its local subsidiary, The Episcopal Church in South Carolina, a director of The Historical Society of the Episcopal Church testified that the denomination has no supreme control over its dioceses or parishes, countering TEC claims to the contrary.
Dr. Allen C. Guelzo, who is also a professor of history at Gettysburg College, an expert on the history of religious organizations including TEC and the author of 16 books, said that TEC’s authority is “prescriptive,” which means the denomination can advise its dioceses but cannot order them to do anything.
He also testified that TEC was formed by dioceses, including the Diocese of South Carolina, and that it did not form those dioceses. He said there was no evidence in its formation in 1789 or today that it controlled the dioceses that are in union with it. He also testified that nothing associated with TEC’s formation suggests that dioceses that formed it could not leave it as voluntarily as they joined it. “History shows that authority flows from bottom up,” Guelzo said.
Here are some more details:
http://catholicandreformed.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/wrapping-it-up-south-carolina-trial.html
It’s also being reported that Mary Kostel might have said or done something that resulted in today’s session being adjourned early. I cannot find an impartial account of that anywhere.
The account here, from the Diocese of SC, refers to a fairly sharp exchange between witness Dr. Guelzo and Mary Kostel. It doesn’t say anything about an exchange with the judge. However, here is TECSC’s blog about the trial. According to that account, TECSC had entered its “abandonment of communion” document against Bishop Lawrence into evidence. When DioSC’s attorney began to question question Chancellor Logan about the procedures used, or misused, to produce that “abandonment” charge, Ms. Kostel became very persistent in her objections.
The attack upon Bishop Lawrence, on a sustained level of over a two year period probably shows the hatred and vindictiveness that is prevalent in the national “church” and the judge was seeing that for the first time. It was not a one and done removal…but instead, a tortuous attack upon a Godly man. A persecution by an evil entity upon the righteous.
I’m really wondering if Judge Goodstein was able to see a real persecution of a righteous group of people by another group [Edited by Elf].
And vonRosenburg is just doing his job. Poor fellow.
I doubt that Milton Finch. I met a least one married couple at the St. George trial who were sitting on opposite sides for the proceedings and they have managed to keep this disagreement from damaging what is really important.
I suspect that most people on both sides genuinely believe that their understanding of TEC polity is correct and there is no reason to privilege one side as “righteous” simply because of the view they hold on that question. I’m not even entirely convinced that those in the highest office [i]know[/i] that they’re putting forward an erroneous argument with regard to polity. We’ve reached this juncture in large measure because most American Anglican scholars stopped writing about canon law during the 1960s.
True, people are hurt. Imagine the thousands across this once great nation that have lost their church homes to the TEc group, only to watch those same buildings be sold to Muslims and the likes by said group because the objective was not so much to have a building for worshipers as it was to remove a group as punishment because of how they thought. I and my family have lived the pain of being worked out via intimidation and hatred. There’s very little family in it.
What’s that thing about bone and sinew or muscle or something and the Word?
Milton, I believe the reference you are looking for is [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+4:12&version=ESV]Hebrews 4:12:[/url] “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
#7 and #8 Milton Finch
True, but just my suggestion, this is a time for calm and prayer for the Wonderful Diocese of South Carolina, and for Bishop Mark as he prepares to take the stand tomorrow. I have had the privilege of meeting him and in my view you are very lucky indeed to have him as your bishop and also to have the legal team you have. All of you are in my fervent prayers at this time, along with the Judge who seems to have had a very trying time, and with her court.
Remember also what the man with the sword said to Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15]:
It is the Lord’s battle, and we are just called upon to be ready to serve, and to stand, and to pray, and to trust. God bless you and grant you His peace.
Exactly Brian. When a couple has that mindset….what pray tell are they doing on two sides if the court. There’s a house divided if ever there was one.
Can everyone imagine and take into account a soldier watching an army of evil being decimated before his eyes? These are the yells of glory and happiness as one witnesses the aimed blows of a sword doing what they were intended to do for the protection of the little one that once had no defense.
Alleluia. Praise to The Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation. Oh my soul, praise Him, for He is thy help and salvation! All ye who hear, now to His temple draw near…Praise Him in Glad Adoration!
Praise to The Lord who over all things so wonderfully reigneth, shelters thee under His wings, yea so gently sustaineth! Hast thou not seen how thy desires ever have been granted in what He ordaineth?
Praise to The Lord, who hath fearfully, wonderfully, made thee; Health hath vouchsafed and, when heedlessly falling, hath staid thee. What need or grief ever hath failed or relief? Wings of His mercy did shade thee.
Praise to The Lord, Who doth prosper thy work and defend thee; surely His goodness and mercy here daily attend thee. Ponder anew what the Almighty can do, if with His love HE BEFRIEND THEE.
Praise to The Lord, Who, when tempests their warfare are waging, Who, when the elements madly around thee are raging, biddeth them cease, turneth their fury to peace, whirlwinds and waters assuaging.
Praise to The Lord, Who, when darkness of sin is abounding, Who, When the Godless do triumph, all virtue confounding, sheddeth His light, chaseth the horrors of night, saints with His mercy surrounding.
Praise to The Lord, oh let all that is in me adore Him!
All that hath life and breath, come now with praises before Him.
Let the AMEN sound from His people again, gladly for aye we adore Him.
May the Lord bless you for your censorship.
Take the rest of my words away please. Thanks. I want none of my posts on this thread. Peace. Make my words go all away. Not just a few.
Take all my posts off this thread.
Remove all my posts. thanks! All.
Please remove all my posts. Make them all go away. All.
All
None.
No words of mine should be here. None. All my words must be removed. From here on out…gone.
Remove all my words from this site. thanks.
Although coauthor of The Episcopalians, I am no expert on TEC polity, but I lean toward my friend and colleague Allen’s view, which was paraphrased as: “the denomination can advise its dioceses but cannot order them to do anything.”
Well said Paegaentmaster! We deeply appreciate any and all prayers for us. Many here have also been praying since the trial began. Today is the last day. Thanks be to God!
I am following the case because I find many such things fascinating. I, too, have had the privileges of shaking +Mark’s hand and wishing him well – prior to the second convention that elected him.
We left ECUSA in ’05, and are very happy in ACNA’s International Diocese.
I am personally hopeful that, at 82 years of age, we will see DioSC welcomed into ACNA. Of course, I’m also hopeful that the majority of the Anglican Primates will not attend Lambeth. One can dream, cannot one?
RE: “I am personally hopeful that, at 82 years of age, we will see DioSC welcomed into ACNA.”
As long as we are expressing personal hopes I hope that the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina does not choose to connect itself with ACNA, particularly as it already has the Primatial oversight from the Global South that it needs in order to maintain authority, accountability, and connection with the provinces of the Anglican Communion with which it desires to be connected.
There are wonderful people within ACNA, but the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina remains far stronger, more functional, and healthy without attaching itself to yet another organizational body.
And as long as we are hoping, I hope that the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina establishes missionary territories far and wide, as it did to such great effect a century and a half ago. I am very confident that there will be congregations in the lower half of Georgia, the eastern 1/3 of NC [as well as the northwestern 1/3 of NC], and various other locales that would be very grateful to be known as a part of The Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina, led by Bishop Lawrence.
No. 14: Agreed.
So Sarah, can I assume this is finally your announcement you are leaving TEC and joing in with Mark Lawrenece?
Leave TEC? I’m having way too much fun. ; > )
Sarah, LOL! love it. The Diocese’s missionary reach into other states…. there is a concept! Perhaps…… in the near future but probably not while we are in the midst of lawsuit with TEC that could go on for several years if other lawsuits involving dioceses are any indication.
14. Sarah – It is the strengths and fortitude of +Mark and his Diocese that I hope can come to, and strengthen ACNA.
There are few of us in ACNA who did not have primatial oversight from elsewhere, as I’m sure you are aware, either from an African church or the Southern Cone; those primates saw the wisdom in, and urged us to, create what is now ACNA.
Such primatial oversight was always intended to be there to cope with an emergency situation…in fact, the formal name for it was Temporary Emergency Episcopal Oversight, or something very similar if I recall correctly.
This is what sheltered our parish when we first established it in ’06. We were very grateful to have it, but always looked forward to having our American coverage, as we now do.
If you are still a member of ECUSA, as it now functions, well…why stay? Surely, you don’t see any basic changes in directions taking place there?
[Just a reminder to commenters – comments suggesting, encouraging or instructing others to leave or join any church or denomination, howsoever expressed or alluded to are not permitted on T19 – please also remain on topic – thanks – Elf]
RE: “It is the strengths and fortitude of +Mark and his Diocese that I hope can come to, and strengthen ACNA.”
Yes, I hear that a number of members of ACNA wish that SC would join ACNA in order to help ACNA. But . . . that’s never a good reason for relationships to be joined together. “She’ll change if or after I marry her” is always a bad way of beginning to intensify relationships.
RE: “those primates saw the wisdom in, and urged us to, create what is now ACNA.”
Well . . . actually . . . there was a lot of pressure on those Primates to remove parishes and dioceses/bishops/clergy from their oversight by [i]Canterbury[/i] with the carrot being that Canterbury would perhaps kinda maybe think about possibly recognizing the new entity that transpired; I felt at the time that it was a real pity that some fell for that. And quite a few bishops/dioceses– as you know — chose to continue Primatial oversight while they are in ACNA, for some odd reason or other.
But regardless of why certain Primates wished for ACNA to be created [or at least, wished for an *entity of whatever description* to be created], thank goodness that the Diocese of SC is its own organization and may choose to do whatever it pleases, whether to join or not, and so far, fortunately, I’m not hearing any clamor from Primates of other provinces that SC should join ACNA. In fact, it could be argued that their decision to create the Global South Primatial Oversight Council soon after the Diocese of SC departed TEC actually takes the pressure off of South Carolina to choose ACNA: “We decided to establish a Primatial Oversight Council, in following-through the recommendations taken at Dromantine in 2005 and Dar es Salam in 2007, to provide pastoral and primatial oversight to dissenting individuals, parishes, and dioceses in order to keep them within the Communion.” It’s interesting phrasing, I think, just as Luke thought “Temporary Emergency Episcopal Oversight” was interesting back 8-9 years ago.
RE: “Surely, you don’t see any basic changes in directions taking place there?”
Oh I see lots and lots of basic changes taking place — but not of the sort you’re thinking of. I’ve said that about a thousand times, though, over the past 10 years, so nothing has changed in my viewpoint about changes in TEC. So far, my predictions have met some good fulfillments and we’ll see if that continues.
RE: “If you are still a member of ECUSA, as it now functions, well…why stay?”
Since I’ve answered that question from you about half a dozen times, I don’t see your liking the same answer any better this time around.
I’m a very happy member of TEC and don’t see myself leaving any time soon, though of course, I’m always open to God’s giving *me* a change of direction.
The above is simply my expressing hopes — just as Luke expressed hopes above in comment #13 — about the future of the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina; I care a lot about it and its people and want the best for it. The Episcopal Diocese of SC and its bishop and clergy/lay leaders are their own people and have shown a lot of good sense over the past very tough decade. I’ve always admired their decision to stay in TEC, while being *thrilled* at the manner and time and trigger for their decision to depart — the attempted inhibition of their bishop by very frustrated, bitter TEC leaders who couldn’t abide Bishop Lawrence’s and the diocese’s continued vocal and clear differentiation from the gospel that current TEC leaders promote. What a dumb mistake that was!
I’m confident that the committee tasked to explore various options will do their research and study and hopefully come to some wise decisions about any future affiliations.