In Sevenoaks – visited by the BBC News website earlier this year to discuss the women bishops debate, the parish of St John the Baptist is firmly on the Catholic wing of the Church and opposed to women’s ordination.
But Jim Cheeseman, a parishioner of St John’s and a member of the C of E’s General Synod, finds much to criticise in the Vatican’s plan.
For example, the rules issued by the Vatican say that lay Anglicans joining the ordinariates must receive the sacraments of initiation.
If that means submitting to a fresh ceremony of confirmation, he says, “to me that would be totally unacceptable”.
[blockquote] If that means submitting to a fresh ceremony of confirmation, he says, “to me that would be totally unacceptable”. [/blockquote]
Therein lies the rub. The Romans have set up guidelines for conversion. This gentleman, and I suspect the vast majority of High Church types, are not looking for conversion. They are looking for acceptance as a coequal branch of the church catholic.
Rome has already addressed that subject definitively. I would encourage Mr. Cheeseman and most of his fellow Anglo-Catholics to stop worrying about Rome and start worrying about Canterbury since given their mindset, they effectively have no where to go.
In ICXC
John
“Sacrament of initiation?” Is that one of the seven?
Or is everything that Rome does a “sacrament?”
#2, I think they’re referring to Baptism and Confirmation. Of course, the vast majority of Anglicans would not require Baptism, only Confirmation.
Re #2
Br_er Rabbit,
Actually the phrase employed was “sacraments of initiation”(plural). It is hardly an unusual reference for those sacraments used to receive converts. We Orthodox sometimes use the phrase as well. In the case of Anglicans coming over to Rome that would probably include confession and confirmation since Catholics tend to accept non-Catholic baptisms (with a few exceptions).
On a side note, not everyone is stuck on the number seven. Some of us see that simply as the minimum universally accepted.
In ICXC
John
Thanks, Ad Orientem. I thought that the plural referred to the fact that more than one convert would have to receive the ‘rite’.
At the moment, two is the number of sacraments universally accepted, although some refer to them as the two ‘ordinances’.
More than seven, huh? Do you have a maximum number in mind? Or is it a short list?
Br_er Rabbit,
Within the catholic (small ‘c’) tradition seven is is the more or less universally accepted minimum. Moving outside of that one finds a vast divergence of opinion within the reformed tradition with soem accepting five and as you noted some effectively saying zero. (The term “ordinances” is employed by certain low church Protestants typically of the Evangelical persuasion who prefer to avoid the word “sacrament as they reject sacramental theology out of hand.)
The Orthodox Church has never put a numerical limit on the sacraments. Some of us refer to major and minor or lesser sacraments. The seven generally accepted would fall into the former category. However in addition to those seven many if not most Orthodox would also recognize the following as sacraments of the Church.
The Orthodox Funeral
The Churching of Women After Childbirth
Monastic Tonsure
Exorcism of demons
Anointing of an Orthodox Monarch
In ICXC
John
Ad Orientem,
Interesting!
The Churching of Women After Childbirth sounds like a holdover from ancient Israelite practice, documented in the Bible, and probably practiced by Mary before Jesus’ presentation in the Temple.
The Rabbit
#7 – the Book of Common Prayer (1662) has a liturgy for the Churching of Women. I assume it stayed in the BCP revisions up to recent times (maybe even the 1928 version?) but got left out of the 1979.
Many of the Eastern Churches in union with Rome also maintain that tradition.
#6 Ad Orientum
“Monastic Tonsure” – the sacrament of the Holy Haircut – how cool is that!
Mind you, Anglicans, being catholic and reformed, accept the two sacraments ordained of Christ:
[blockquote]XXV. Of the Sacraments.
SACRAMENTS ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men’s profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses and effectual signs of grace and God’s good will towards us, by the which He doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm, our faith in Him.
There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord.
Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not the like nature of Sacraments with Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.
The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.
http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/articles/articles.html#25
[/blockquote]
Re # 10
Pageantmaster,
I would not call it a hair cut. More like a small snip lol. Remember we are talking about [url=http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/solekat205/the crescat/20.jpg]Orthodox monks[/url] here.
In ICXC
John
[blockquote]If that means submitting to a fresh ceremony of confirmation, he says, “to me that would be totally unacceptable”.[/blockquote]
Oh, but cooperating with an apostate wreck would be acceptible? #1 is correct, Anglicans are looking for affirmation. Ben has said ‘put your money where your mouth is’ and all Anglicans can do is blather on…and on…and on…
#12 I never know – the Greek monks always seem to have hats on, but are beards compulsory? Some of them are truly a wonder to behold.
Pageantmaster,
I recall the story of a young lady who after attending an Orthodox liturgy buttonholed the priest and said “nice service father but understand you don’t ordain women. Why can’t I be a priest in your church?” The priest looked at her in silence for a moment and then replied “Can you grow a beard?”
Beards are normative among Orthodox priests and monks. Here in N. America some of the more progressive priests do trim their beards close and radical liberals have been known to shave. But this is not the norm. Among the monastics long hair is also very common.
In ICXC
John
#15 Thank you, your story had me chuckling.