We hear a lot of talk about being “prophetic” in the Episcopal Church these days, but should we?
On many occasions in the last several years I have heard an Episcopal Church leader say, “we are a prophetic church; we speak truth to power.” As I write this, there is an essay in circulation with the headline “Now is the time for prophetic action.”
We need to think carefully about such words.
In the Bible, a prophet was someone who brought God’s word into a situation. God spoke to them, they listened, and sought accurately to convey what they heard to God’s people. Hence we hear such Old Testament language as “Thus says the Lord,” or, in the ministry of Jesus, when we read “it was said”¦but I say to you.”
There are no prophets in the full biblical sense any more. As far as we know, the canon of Holy Scripture is closed. But it is possible, although rare, to see in a ministry a “prophetic” element. How can we discern such a thing?
For starters, prophets are not usually self-referential and are never self-authenticating. You do not find them saying, “Hi, I am a prophet.” Indeed, quite the opposite is the case. Amos answered Amazi’ah, “I am no prophet, nor a prophet’s son; but I am a herdsman, and a dresser of sycamore trees”¦” (Amos 7:14).
Prophets also swim upstream in the time in which they minister. WAY upstream. If people are zigging, there may be an occasional zagger, but prophets are zuggers. They come from surprising backgrounds, speak in often shocking ways, and are most of the time greeted with disdain, opposition, hostility, or even worse. As Hebrews puts it:
“They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated — of whom the world was not worthy — wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth” (11:37-38)
Perhaps most importantly, prophets are almost always only seen fully in retrospect. When Jeremiah was ministering, many thought him crazy, and most believed him wrong. People from his home area plotted to kill him, and those in authority lowered him at one point into a pit of miry clay. They believed the temple of the Lord was impregnable and the Babylonians were never coming; it was only much later that they could see Jeremiah’s words about both were accurate.
If we use these three measuring points, are there many today who may have prophetic elements in their ministry? Perhaps; but I would venture to say that if so none of us know or recognize them as such right now, and we will be very surprised in heaven when we see the truth of how God is using them.
In the meantime, let us be cautious about such language, remembering well Jesus’ warning: “”Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves” (Matthew 7:15)
–The Rev. Dr. Kendall S. Harmon is Canon Theologian of the Diocese of South Carolina and the convenor of this blog
I would complete the scripture quotation:
[blockquote]“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.[/blockquote]
Unprecedented decline. The outrageous scandal of the lawsuits. “Abortion is a blessing.” These are the fruits of the TEClub.
But the branch of the vine that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Succinct and well stated Father Harmon.
If I may be so bold, I would add a fourth measuring point as suggested by the first reply: prophets are consistent as God is consistent.
And to be clear, when people a zigging they are zigging against God’s word and will, not just doing something different or [i]nouveau[/i].
Oh for an edit: and the prophets zugging are not just doing something different or [i]nouveau[/i], but are, again, consistent with God’s word and will.
Prophets also don’t hold back, or mince words. I don’t think that Amos is the kind of guy you’d want to have over for a fun evening of beer and bratwurst.
The goal of the Prophet was to call people back to their covenant with God. The prophets never, NEVER said that the covenant was no longer operative because science had nullified it or our reason had moved beyond the Covenant.
When we read the Prophets, we hear that God will do a “new thing” but, upon further reading, we find that the “new thing” is to write the “old thing” on our hearts – to make us new from the inside out so that we will live in communion with God naturally. Those who are calling TEC back to “the apostles’ teachiing and fellowship” have the true prophetic ministry today, not those who are calling for changing the apostles’ teaching and leaving their fellowship.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Interesting thoughts. I agree that “prophetic” is not useful language, partly because it’s so unclear exactly what one means when one uses it. None of the official prophets I can think of were part of the arc of history bending toward justice — the orphans and widows weren’t saved as part of a movement started by the prophets, and Jeremiah turned out to be right about all those military alliances, but it didn’t start a movement. But denying the use of “prophetic” to movements for justice means people like Martin Luther King and Wilberforce wouldn’t make the cut, since both of them were voices in successful movements that were larger than themselves (and probably would have been ultimately successful in their absence).
I guess the one thing I’d say about your references to TEC is that I don’t know anybody there who says “I am a prophet” (but this is cyberspace, where there’s no doubt an example of most anything available for the price of a google). What they say is “this was a prophetic action.” Jesus does suggest we’re responsible for judging true from false prophets (in this year’s All Saints’ gospel and elsewhere), so I don’t think saying “this is a prophetic action” is discrediting in the same way as “I am a prophet” would be. But, as I said, I don’t find this language very useful, and I agree that prophets are identified in retrospect.
This is from Jeremiah 14:13-16:
But I said, “Alas, Sovereign LORD! The prophets keep telling them, ‘You will not see the sword or suffer famine. Indeed, I will give you lasting peace in this place.’â€
14 Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries[a] and the delusions of their own minds. 15 Therefore this is what the LORD says about the prophets who are prophesying in my name: I did not send them, yet they are saying, ‘No sword or famine will touch this land.’ Those same prophets will perish by sword and famine. 16 And the people they are prophesying to will be thrown out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and sword. There will be no one to bury them, their wives, their sons and their daughters. I will pour out on them the calamity they deserve.
This has got to be one of the most divisive things that Canon Harmon has ever written.
RE: “As far as we know, the canon of Holy Scripture is closed.”
WHAT???? Who says? Some patriarchal misogynist might say so, but we’re beyond that now. What about the resolutions of General Convention?
RE: “For starters, prophets are not usually self-referential and are never self-authenticating.”
[heavy sigh] That was for those primitive Semitic patriarchal types. Nowadays we [i]know[/i] when we are prophets. And in The Episcopal Church there are *dozens* and *scores* and *hundreds* of prophets. You can see them all at General Conventions, Diocesan Conventions and in Integrity, of course. Many many of them have pointy hats as well.
Why I would estimate that among our bishops fully 80% are prophets — there is a tiny minority of regressive rigid repressed types of bishops that aren’t — but other than those, we could most likely have 100% Prophet status in our bishop ranks.
Things, of course, decline in percentages from there: lots of Prophets as bishops, plenty of Prophets as Deputies to GC, practically 100% Prophet ratio in Executive Council, a slightly less but still healthy percentage of Prophets as delegates to Diocesan Conventions, and from there things slack off a bit.
RE: “They come from surprising backgrounds, speak in often shocking ways, and are most of the time greeted with disdain, opposition, hostility, or even worse.”
Now see — [i]there[/i]! There we are. [i]That’s[/i] the criterium that we definitely fulfill all the time. Our hundreds of TEC prophets speak in “shocking ways” on a daily basis. Katherine Ragsdale was quite shocking when she announced that abortion was a “blessing,” for instance, and there are scores of other examples of our prophetically shocking speech.
Yes, I think taken all in all, we can safely answer Canon Harmon’s somewhat divisive question pretty clearly and affirmatively: yes — there are Prophets in our Midst!!!!
Indeed, we have been more blessed with a higher percentage of Prophets than any other denomination.
By that standard, in fact, we are ahead of the pack.
Who says The Episcopal Church is in decline!
Kendall’s comments are quite sensible. Nonetheless, I remain fascinated by the church’s unwillingness to listen to the real prophets when they talk about money.
If we abandon the poor, we will be punished.
If one works in America, it is virtually impossible to “abandon the poor”. Money is coercively taken from us by the government and redistributed to the poor. The only ones “abandoning the poor” in this process are those that leach off the process, taking their rather large cut, before the poor get the now reduced money taken from the workers.
Then again, I have to admit, that there are nearly half the US population that are “abandoning the poor” because they pay no Federal income tax. Perhaps those that are concerned about the poor among us should go after the deadbeats that pay no Federal income tax and make them start paying, too. A good start would be to make sure that all income earners pay taxes at the lowest scale, starting with the first dollar earned. We should also do away with all “credits”. That would ensure that we are all helping the poor as our government redistributes our wealth to them.
Thanks, Kendall, for this timely critique of all the loose, self-serving talk about “prophetic” action in TEC and other “progressive” denominations.
I’m with robroy (#1) and keith (#8) in calling attention to the very real danger in claiming to be a prophet, when not all would-be prophets truly speak for God. After all, there are such things as false prophets, and they are legion and rampant in TEC. Along with Matt. 7 and Jer. 14 (already mentioned by others above), I would add a reminder of such stark warnings against false prophets as Jer. 6:13-15 and 23:9-15, or this particularly apt passage from the Lord’s rebuke to the Church of Thyatira in Rev. 2:19-20:
“[i]I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance…But I have this against you, you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet, and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality…[/i]”
It is one thing when a modern prophet like Martin Luther King “speaks truth to power” in the Lord’s name and acts as a godly voice appealing to the conscience of the society and calling for genuine justice. It is another thing altogether when false prophets like the American PB and her notorious ilk speak lies in the name of the Lord, calling evil good and good evil (as in Isa. 5:20) in their perverted notion of what social justice looks like.
David Handy+
Here’s Richard Hooker on the subject:
Since the advocates of the “New Thang” cannot make their case through careful biblical exegesis–that’s what Hooker means by “reason” in this passage–then clearly they are claiming the same kind of revelation as characterized biblical prophets or apostles. That’s what our Jewish friends call “some chutzpah.”
I don’t know where #11 hangs out (if s/he is so sick and tired, maybe s/he doesn’t hang out), but I’d have no trouble showing her/him lots of poor people who are abandoned and struggle to cope with the basic necessities. Perhaps, as the Tea Partiers suggest, we should abandon them to Fate, or better, take what they have and redistribute it to the already-haves.
#14, Dan, the prophets of the OT always called the people to care for the poor. They never – – never – – called for the government to care for the poor.
The church has, to a considerable degree, abdicated its calling in this area. The Vatican art collection – – the real estate on which Westminster Abbey sits – – my own denomination, which owns 14 church camps (all with over 2000′ of lakefront property attached) throughout the USA – – all of us, and much more, ought to be available to help the poor of the world. I would contend that the prophets would “cleanse the temples” with some regularity, were they here.
#14, I hang out in America. I’ve been paying taxes since I stared work at age 14 picking apples for “agricultural” minimum wage. I also remember supporting myself working a part time job at minimum wage while having tax money taken from me to support others that were capable of work but that were gaming the system. They got rental assistance, utility assistance, food stamps, education benefits, and a cash stipend…all from same taxes I was being forced to pay from my very meager wages. I remember being paid $6 an hour under the table for unloading fishing boats. When I found out that my employer wasn’t taking out taxes, I asked that he would. I then received $5 per hour and thought he was taking out the taxes. At the end of the year, I discovered that he hadn’t withheld the taxes, he just pocketed the difference.
So that’s where I used to hang out when I formed my opinion of how the poor are abandoned. I used to eat $0.25 macaroni and cheese and $0.20 Ramen soup as staples of my diet. How about you? Where did you hang out to form your opinions? Tell me how rough it was for you in college living as a student in the dorms. Gosh, I just love a sad story that ends well.
BTW #14, how do you feel about taxing the income of single Moms that work 2 or 3 jobs supporting their children, just so they can support welfare queens and SSI drug addicts? What do you think the prophets would say about a government taking money from these working Moms to give to the profligate and the slothful?
RE: “I also remember supporting myself working a part time job at minimum wage while having tax money taken from me to support others that were capable of work but that were gaming the system. They got rental assistance, utility assistance, food stamps, education benefits, and a cash stipend…all from same taxes I was being forced to pay from my very meager wages.”
Now now, Sick and Tired . . . you’ve been promised something really nice. Something that will *really* open your eyes to the poor and suffering, since you obviously never have been poor or suffered. We know this because nobody who has been poor and suffering would actually be opposed to government redistribution of wealth. The Poor And Suffering don’t have time for the trivial details like the Constitution and discerning whether all the efforts of the State actually, you know, [i]work[/i].
So all of the above being the case, Dan Crawford will now reveal something to you that you have no doubt ever ever ever seen: “lots of poor people who are abandoned and struggle to cope with the basic necessities.”
That’s so that your education may be fulfilled. So that finally after umpteen years of life, you yourself may actually be able to observe something that someone of the political worldview of a Dan Crawford has actually seen — but someone of your political worldview has nevah nevah nevah seen, much less [snort] experienced.
Alas, there are no true prophets today that we can recognize, but there are plenty of the other type around to keep us on our toes.
I like Kendall’s distinction between the Biblical prophets and those with a prophetic element to their ministry. I believe fully that there are those in our midst with strong prophetic gifts. After all, prophecy is a gift of the Spirit. Are they going to write books of the Bible? Probably not. Are they going to speak the truth of the Gospel to this world? Yes. Are they going to be persecuted for it? Most definitely. It’s already happening. They don’t need to justify themselves by calling themselves prophets. All we have to is speak God’s Holy Word – sow the seed! Blessings to all of those who humbly exercise prophetic gifts. We need you!
Markp in #7 can you give any examples in Scripture where a prophet says “this is a prophetic action”?
“examples in Scripture where a prophet says “this is a prophetic actionâ€?”
Not off the top of my head, but surely the actions of the prophets were — Jeremiah buying that property, say, or even Jesus cleansing the temple. Now, was Jesus speaking with the Samaritan woman at the well — breaking social norms on several levels — a prophetic act? Don’t know, but I’m guessing we’d all agree it was a “good idea”, one way or another.
Kendall, I am on your side, but have to tackle your question above. I would argue that implicit in many prophetic actions is the message that this is what God has called me to demonstrate to you. A clear example would be Jeremiah’s fashioning of a yoke, 27.1-15. In v 4 ff he specifically interprets the action as a message from God.
Kendall–
Sorry if my response sounded facetious.
I guess I’m not clear what’s really at stake in using the word “prophetic” here. You said, “Prophets also swim upstream in the time in which they minister. WAY upstream.” and “prophets are almost always only seen fully in retrospect.” By those criteria, how about Peter, who, after his rooftop vision, rethought his relationship to the Gentile world and then went and, on his own authority, acted on his new understanding? In retrospect, I think that looks pretty prophetic, even if it’s never called that in Scripture. And I imagine that’s what some people claim for some of TEC’s actions. Again, though, don’t find using the word very helpful, because I don’t think it adds much to “action I agree with” or “action I disagree with” (as many of the above comments attest).
MarkP (#21) – Not only did Peter have a specific revelation from God, he also had Scriptural backing for what he did – he operated from within the scriptural witness. Prophetic acts will always call us back to greater faithfulness to our Covenant with God, not call us away from that Covenant. Remember that while there was argument and debate in Acts 15, there was also significant agreement after the argument and debate was over. That is what prophetic words and actions bring – harmony and agreement, not animosity and discord.
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
Kendall,
[blockquote]There are no prophets in the full biblical sense any more. As far as we know, the canon of Holy Scripture is closed.[/blockquote]
At the risk of being taken to task by the entire group here. I don’t agree with you linking the two ideas. I would agree that the canon of Holy Scripture is closed but where does is say in scripture that there will be no more prophets? In fact, Paul states, “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. (1 Cor 12:7-11). Are you willing to say that all of the gifts no longer exist? I take this list to be a part of the church today. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. (Heb. 13:8)
Yes, there are God’s prophets, people who receive “a word” (a message, which might be an image, an action to mimic, a phrase, a thought, a whole discourse or series of phrases to speak or write, etc.), which is given with the intention that it be shared.
In my experience and knowledge, there are times when people “speak prophetically”, without identifying it or knowing how to identify it as prophecy.
And there are those, as a few folks have already noted, who have come to recognize such prophetic ministry, small or great, through themselves, and are therefore quite validly capable of saying out loud, “I have prophesied.” In some cases, certain individuals should say out loud, “I am a prophet.” I have said this quite a few times before when this subject comes up. If there are those who can say, “I am a teacher”, or “I am a pastor”, or “I am a priest”, then there should be those who can be recognized in the church as “a prophet.” We currently have a licensing process for someone to be identified as “a catechist”, or even “a preacher”. But nothing as such for “a prophet” (I will leave the qualifications and/or training for such an office to those commenters who have already gotten that difficult conversation started above).
And there are those who should apply when that classification becomes canonical.
All that is part of the background to Kendall’s frustration, which I share, and so many as already evident in this thread and on previous threads, when “prophetically” or “prophetic action” are phrases used apparently ignorant of such background. I suppose another difficulty is when people who simply do not believe in God’s words spoken as prophecy need such a phrase to describe exhortation or admonition.
It is a problem of biblical authority and practice.
I would add a fourth criterion to those listed by Fr. Harmon: POWER. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:4 “My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.” And as Jesus said: “Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”[John 10:37-38].
Recall the encounter between Elijah and the “prophets” of Baaal? Recall what Moses and Aaron did in the presene of Pharoah to convince him that what they said came from the Lord? These were prophets who proved their prophasies with power.
Modern “prophets” can prove the veracity of their “prophacies” with demonstrations of the Spirit’s power. Otherwise, they are as true as the prophets of Baal.
An excellent post. I remain mystified by loose references to “prophesy” and its cognates in modern Church rhetoric. I have assumed that it is just loose language, and that people are really trying to express some other concept (not sure what).
Sick and Tired has an experience, and a personal anecdote. He’s also right – his tax money didn’t do very much for him. I’m sure there were some people gaming the system.
But blaming the poor is easy. There are large corporations that siphon of millions of dollars from the government teat. The percentage given to the poor is miniscule to the amount given to Blackwater and Halliburton, and the numerous tax breaks given to corporations. We are selective: we excuse and idolize the wealthy; we blame and victimize the poor.
I don’t resent a little bit going to the poor. Some of it, through education, helps. It minimizes the desperation that makes neighborhoods violent. And it is charitable, as it’s sometimes more efficient than churches. After all, if churches were full of Christians, there would be no poverty. Churches aren’t doing their job.
The man who always says that there’s work never knows where the jobs are. And where are the jobs that allow men to raise a family with benefits, to have time to spend with them on the weekend? Or have we given up on the idea of a middle class?
OR let it be like Somalia, where the government does nothing, might makes right, and unfettered capitalism thrives.
As Oliver Holmes suggested “taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.”
Romans 13:6
Without meaning anything adverse about other posts, I was particularly struck by the common sense and godly attitude of the first six posts above. True prophets call back the people of God back to the eternal truths.
It looks as if you hit a nerve here, Dr. Harmon.
I have known people who brought God’s word into particular situations (without promoting themselves as prophets) in such a way that, at least in my own mind, I was willing to call them prophets. I’m willing to say that Martin Luther King, Jr., in pointing out how racism tyrannizes the whole country and betrays its ideals– rather than focusing narrowly on how it victimizes black people– in this sense, combined with his radical commitment to non-violent resistance, I’d say MLK Jr was a prophet. The more so because I don’t recall his ever calling himself a prophet.
I don’t have a lot of sources at my command right now to back up what I’m saying, but if the Didache is at all reliable, the sub-apostolic church gave the name “prophet” to one of its authorized ministries. Jewish sources are somewhat ambiguous about whether there continued to be prophets after the death of Malachi. Officially, no; but then I think you can find references to prophets and prophetic guilds at or around the time of Jesus’s ministry.
At the time of his election to be Bishop of Washington, JB Chane announced to the world that his role would be a prophetic one. It gave me the creeps just to read that– a self-appointed, “self-referential and self-authenticating” prophet. He has turned out to be just what I feared.
B’shalom,
Chuck Bradshaw
Hulls Cove, Maine
Chuck,
As you can see from my comment #27 we are on the same page here, along with Dale, and Townsend; Philip’s almost in there (in these comments).
The easy way out of the distinction of various gifts is to simply say that certain folks get thoughts and impressions from the Holy Spirit which they are spiritually inclined or pressed to share, and these sharings bear fruit, spiritually, physically, and (or) soulfully. I say easy, because it can be extremely helpful in discipleship training to encourage people to see that they may or may have already had such thoughts and impressions, and that these need to be shared. This in contrast to the bog that often is created by trying to get people to understand the various gifts of the Spirit.
Still, clearly defining the various ways the Spirit works is very helpful for such conversations as this. For instance, Acts 15, as Philip pointed to, can be outlined by Spirit action – based on OT and NT descriptions of spiritual gifts, I see Peter with a gift of teaching, then comes the opportunity for testimony by Paul and others, the word of wisdom (from James and the council), which bore fruit in “encouragment” and “strengthening” of the believers; followed by the gift of exhortation to ministries outside of Jerusalem regarding the wisdom-filled council proclamation. The deacon is right about the consequence of the Spirit’s actions in the people. But, tragically, Acts 15 does not end in a story of peace and harmony, but of separation, argument and division (later to be reconciled) between Paul and Barnabas. Which only proves the power of the human nature (the Flesh), most likely egged on by the World and the Devil, to undermine even the greatest movements of God.
In any case, a prophetic word (or “a word of prophesy”) is not technically manifested in this important scene from the apostolic church. What the heck difference does that make?! Well, just this quick exegesis on gifts provides enough of a foundation to be able to say to others who are making unfounded claims, “This is not prophetic action or preaching. So quit claiming it is.”
I suppose it should be noted, too, that it is more often the hearers and the followers of a preacher who make such proclamations for the preacher, and not the preacher themself.
Kendall, I think you are limiting your definition of the “full biblical sense” of prophet to the “full Old Testament sense” of prophet, and that is not fair to the expansive work of the Holy Spirit as found both in Jesus’ ministry, and then to all believers following Pentecost.
But what I know we can ALL agree on is the absolute necessity of honest and realistic humility, without which a prophet’s ministry, even true ministry, can be so easily discolored, tainted.
The Church has always been intended to include prophets and prophesy; seems the moreso right now, if only to bring those who claim such ministry wrongly to blessed silence.
Ralph,
I know it was probably offered in a humorous vein, but I have a problem with stereotyping the personal nature and characteristics of an Old Testament prophet based on the nature of the prophecies they were given to speak out.
Certainly, as Hosea was living out the words and the obedient action he was given it doesn’t seem likely he was anything but intense for several years. Nor Jeremiah, during the period of time he was being called on often to appear at the palace, or being dropped into the cistern and left there.
But there is no reason to envision a sour-faced Amos after making the message given to him known, that instead he didn’t head back home, call over his friends, and have a night drinking from a good sized bowl of wine, recounting his travel and the words spoken.
Whether with a bottle of Claret among friends or not, it is a mistake, I believe, to see Prophets and any who are given prophecies, as anything else but God-believing, often un-suspecting, human beings, just like you and me.
jkc1945,
I hear your point about the responsibility of all people to care for all people, and not just defer to government agencies (including church leaders and programs?).
But you could make your point without stating emphatically that prophets never demanded governments to care (in some way or the other?) for the poor and neglected and oppressed; I think you are mistaken in that.
To use Amos again, local government was taken to task for not caring for those folks. Perhaps you weren’t referring to equal justice, but more to developing government based and funded programs?
Because the Lord said through Amos,
[blockquote]5:10 “There are those who hate the one who upholds justice in court
and detest the one who tells the truth.
11 You levy a straw tax on the poor
and impose a tax on their grain.
Therefore, though you have built stone mansions,
you will not live in them;
though you have planted lush vineyards,
you will not drink their wine.
12 For I know how many are your offenses
and how great your sins.
There are those who oppress the innocent and take bribes
and deprive the poor of justice in the courts.
13 Therefore the prudent keep quiet in such times,
for the times are evil.” [/blockquote]
As well, God took Pharoah to task through Moses for not providing more adequately for the Hebrews under their government work program.
But here is a simple fact, that a blog is for all intents and purposes for prophets, those who can foretell the future with certainty. The diference between prophecy and wish fullfilment is as vague as ever, and none can know the difference until long after the future comes to pass. Larry
Can legitimate prophecy contradict Scripture? Are believers supposed to judge the words of a prophet, and if so, by what criteria are they to judge if not the Scriptures? Just because prophecy is given, does that mean it should be followed? (I am thinking of Agabas telling Paul that he would be imprisoned if he went to Jerusalem, yet the apostle still went to Jerusalem – evidently in the providence of God.)
37. Sick & Tired of Nuance,
You give an interesting example. Paul understood the prophecy correctly. He didn’t see it as a warning against going to Jerusalem but understood that it would be what would happen when he went.
Hello Rob Eaton,
Your point is very well taken. I was thinking more along the lines of “government-led” programs. But I tend to think that ‘the government’ has often at least tried to fill in the holes in the so-called safety nets, and that has been done primarily because we in the church have not taken our calling seriously. We protect our physical assets, often, while those around us suffer at the margins of society. I am not a “government social do-gooder,” but I also remember that, when the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Lord you need to send all these (5000+) people home; they are going to get hungry and faint on the way. . .” Jesus said to the disciples, “YOU feed them.”
I do accept your gentle rebuke and the scripture showing that government was spoken to and called out by the prophets of God. But I think God also might rebuke us, within the church, for holding onto our “stuff” while His creation struggles. That may not be the government’s call – – but it surely is ours.
jkc,
The main thing, as I think was your intent, is that nobody gets a prophecy waiver card! But, as Kendall points to, where the heck are the prophets and the prophecies we need? We certainly can’t blame scripture for that lack!
Larry,
Certainly, a long-term prophetic word regarding the birth of the Messiah, like 400 years later, takes the prophecy way out of the context of that generation who heard it. A trusted prophet should be trusted.
But what about short-term prophecies? The trouble usually is not how long it will take, but can I be patient enough to not take the fulfillment of prophetic word into my own hands and my own timing.
A helpful and practical teaching about prophets:
[blockquote] “If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods†(gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,†you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.”
[Deuteronomy 13:1-5] [/blockquote]