This week, the plots hatched behind closed doors in the Vatican last year will be played out in the open as the former bishops lead dozens of clergy and hundreds of worshippers in taking up this historic offer.
They will be confirmed in services that will mark a significant watershed in the Anglican Church’s long-running battle over moves to allow women to become bishops.
It represents a new beginning for those entering the Catholic Church, but their departure has deeply wounded the Church of England, which is already riven by bitter rows over gay clergy, and now faces an exodus of traditionalists.
The Anglican left richly deserves the sight of those whom they’ve driven out of the CofE by their doctrinaire feminism taking refuge in the arms of the Roman Church. Those who have departed for the Ordinariate will bring with them the remaining remnants of Anglican authenticity while the left will be left with immortal image of the Vicar of Dibley as their role model.
I very much doubt the prediction of thousands leaving. Many forces militate against such a thing: inertia, how to provide for one’s family, the strong sense of community that unites smaller congregations, disagreement with some aspects of Roman Catholic doctrine. The bigger question, I think, is whether the Anglo-Catholic community can renew itself. I wish it well, and have great respect for it, but I do not see how it can build up its strength again. In a recent address Fr Aidan Nichols OP put his finger on what I think is a key issue. He pointed out how in its heyday (eg the Anglo Catholic Congresses of the 1920s and 30s) the Anglo Catholic movement had as its ideal and intention the catholicising of the Church of England. Such hopes and dreams had gone, he said; the question was now whether they were prepared to be an ecclesiola, a mini-Church, within the Church of England. I write this with no triumphalism. I feel just sadness at the attrition of the movement which nurtured me spiritually until 21 years ago, a movement with great strengths, great dignity, great Christian men and women – and now, it seems, a great past.
I worship within the ACNA and plan to remain there (unless God call’s me elsewhere). However, I resent the phrase “plots hatched behind closed doors”. While I’m sure Rome is looking forward to the lay and ordained coming its way via the Ordinariate, that kind of language misrepresents what happened, IMO.
Terry Tee – why until 21 years ago? What is your church of worship? Please feel free not to answer if this is too nosy on my part.
Montanan, I swam the Tiber in 1990. I am now a RC priest in London. This is generally well known on this blog. I retain great affection and respect for my former confreres, even as I understand the feelings of those who decide that they cannot stay.
I think that movement played a great role, Terry Tee, though only now do we begin to perhaps see it was that of reconciling with the Catholic Church rather than the catholicising of the CofE. Indeed, growing up Anglo-Catholic in the US in the 1950-60s, I heard the adults talk of the catholicising of the Episcopal Church! Hard to imagine now. This article reaches a level of polemic I would not have imagined, either – ‘plots hatched behind closed doors at the Vatican’, for example. That is baloney, and there is evidence that it is. Williams was aware years before that clergy were talking to the Vatican; does the Telegraph imagine the CDF were obligated to provide him quarterly progress reports? And does no one keep an eye on things, and report back to him, anyway? The descriptive tone such as “[i]insensitivity[/i] of the papal offer” in the language used highlights to me the degree to which the CofE seems really to imagine it is in possession of its adherents – something akin to Israel prohibiting evangelization in its territory. I won’t even start on the Archbishop of Canterbury being undermined, and looking like a bystander as a Kent parish goes to the Ordinariate. As ye undermine, so shall ye be undermined, I suppose. The machinations of the CofE and its controlling interest, TEC, in the past 20-30 years have been breath-taking, especially for a body that expects to be understood as a branch of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It gives me no pleasure at all to see the English Church (or the US branch) go this way but having lived more than half a lifetime as these events played out, I am ever more grateful to Benedict XVI, Pope of Christian Unity (may he live long and prosper!), and admiring of those in England motivated and brave enough to seek unity with the Bishop of Rome.
#2 Terry Tee
[blockquote]I feel just sadness at the attrition of the movement which nurtured me spiritually until 21 years ago, a movement with great strengths, great dignity, great Christian men and women – and now, it seems, a great past.[/blockquote]
A wise comment. I am also sad, because although I don’t think they have realised it, they have now become, as you did something other than Anglo-Catholics. Those in the Ordinariate are morphing into something else, perhaps something new.
But the torch now remains with those who are still in the Church of England, and they are under great pressure from the wretched Rowan Williams’ ‘Affirming Catholics’ who are just liberal catholics pretending to be Anglicans, much as they are in the US.
But with Holtam being made a bishop, total meltdown is now not far away.
[blockquote] “the plots hatched behind closed doors in the Vatican last year” [/blockquote]
Where else would one expect a Vatican “plot” to be hatched – in the middle of St Peter’s square?
The author of the article tries to blame the Vatican for simply taking advantage of an opportunity that was offered to it on a large platter. And who offered that opportunity? The fools who have systematically tried to marginalise and then drive out the faithful from the Church of England – Rowan Williams and his various episcopal cronies.
If chickens are coming home to roost, then those who left the feed out must accept the blame that is rightfully theirs.
Please spare us from the notion that the Anglican Communion was wounded from the outside. The most harmful wounds were inflicted from within – the Ordinariate is offering some form of healing for the ones already grievously wounded.
[blockquote] “Such was the distress caused by Mr Lashbrooke’s departure last month that the Bishop of Plymouth, the Rt Rev John Ford, made an unexpected visit to the parish the following Sunday, urging the congregation to “pray and reflect rather than give way to anger and further separationâ€.” [/blockquote]
Perhaps a few more episcopal visits BEFORE the priest left might have been of more use?
[blockquote] “For Archbishop Williams, the battle to stem the tide of Anglicans defecting to Rome has only just begun. Hundreds, if not thousands, are likely to leave if the Church gives final approval next year to current plans to make women bishops.” [/blockquote]
Archbishop Williams could have prevented it happening in the first place. Instead he has done his best to bring it about.
As for how many will leave, I don’t know if it will be hundreds or thousands, but I do know that it will include many very dedicated people, both priests and laity. It is the quality as much as the quantity of those leaving that will wound CofE (let me add, I am an evangelical; I have significant theological differences with those who are leaving, but I recognise deep devotion and loyalty when I see it).
The RCC in England will be better off for having a hundred or more experienced priests joining it, headed by an archbishop (which is effecitvely what Msgr Newton now is) who appears to have remarkable gifts, and the confidence of knowing that he has a direct line to the Vatican.
RE: “The Anglican left richly deserves the sight of those whom they’ve driven out of the CofE by their doctrinaire feminism taking refuge in the arms of the Roman Church.”
Oh, I think the Anglican left have nothing but joy and triumph over the departure of the AngloCatholics. Believe me, they love losing another chunk of their opponents.
On another note, it is fascinating to see MichaelA — who I believe is a Sydney evangelical Anglican — appreciate, respect, and value AngloCatholics — something that the Affirming Catholics and foaming liberal activists in the COE and TEC simply could not do. It is richly ironic that those who vaunt themselves for their inclusivity and affirming nature have little of either, while those they despise have far more acceptance and love for fellow Anglicans of a very differing theology than the libs could conceive of.
I don’t mind folks not being “inclusive” — but I do most certainly despise the actions of those who claim that they are so and make it a linchpin of their foundational worldview and then proceed to demonstrate no “inclusion” at all. What a farce that is.
[Comment deleted by Elf – please do not recruit for other churches on T19]
Wait a minute: “dozens of clergy and hundreds of worshippers” = defection “en masse”!?
#10, “Illiberals”, did you say?
Whether the numbers are hundreds or thousands, it doesn’t matter. It is a further, ultimately self-inflicted, blow to the credibility of the Established Church.
“Whether the numbers are hundreds or thousands, it doesn’t matter.”
If it turns out to be only hundreds, that’s not “en masse”, and it certainly does matter.
What I don’t understand is why a Traditionalist Anglican would bypass the Continuum for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrDbgjLKoxU
I’m not really expecting there would be thousands either. That would probably be quite hard on everyone. It occurred to me after posting above that perhaps especially in Holy Week a little more charity is in order, and also that as a non-Brit I must be missing something. There must be real psychological reasons that a journalist takes a tone somewhere between defensive and paranoid to describe this situation. Weeks back, watching the video made about (I think) Fr. Ed Tomlinson’s parish it was evident there was some adjustment required in the Catholic parish joined by ordinariate-bound Anglicans and there was real loss and perhaps abandonment felt in the CofE parish they left. Their realities are presumably what matters to Our Lord.
LOL, Caedmon. I do believe that the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are an international “order,” so maybe some of the “sisters” will welcome the new Catholics in Britain soon! My favorite moment in the first vid comes at 7:39. I showed it to a rather liberal friend and she wondered if they did that little ritual before or after they sacrificed the goat.
I really, really hope that those Anglicans who are converting spent quite a bit of time visiting RC parishes, asking questions, and attending Masses. If they are counting on remaining rather separate as intact congregations with their own former Anglican priests forever and ever amen, then they might have a rude awakening.
Especially if/when they must join the RC mainstream. I highly doubt the uber-liberal brand of Catholicism and its odd Masses are confined to the U.S.
Pageantmaster is right – in England the liberal catholic group “Affirming Catholicism” started by Rowan Williams and the now atheist bishop Richard Holloway is the one pushing the envelope.
They had and have two goals: women’s ordination and mainstreaming homosexuality. They have had a lot of success, helped by:
1. gerrymandering senior appointments: relatively few people go to AC parishes but AC people predominate in many suffragan bishop posts, cathedral canonries, diocesan sinecures etc. and they keep this going among themselves;
2. divisions among evangelicals, created by ‘Fulcrum’, who carry water for liberals like Tom Butler, the gays-supporting ex-bishop of Southwark who was at war with conservative evangelicals in his diocese; Graham Kings of Fulcrum is now a strong supporter of Nick Holtman, the ‘Inclusive Church’ bishop-to-be of Salisbury;
3. the infusion of 3-4,000 ordained women, mainly into the ranks of ‘part-time’ ministry; most of these women were trained on part-time liberal evening and weekend courses and are ‘soft liberals’ in their theology.
4. the remorseless decline of the C of E (which began before Rowan Williams), along with the departure of many evangelicals for the newer charistmatic churches.
A few thousand Anglo-Catholics leaving will only intensify these trends.
[blockquote]It is the quality as much as the quantity of those leaving that will wound CofE (….. I have significant theological differences with those who are leaving, but I recognise deep devotion and loyalty when I see it). [/blockquote]
That is the material point. You have hit upon one of the more injurious aspects of the whole movement, indeed the same injury of those leaving in the US. The ones who leave are among the most committed and loyal. I would think their loss weighs more. Does that make sense, or am I overstating the issue?
I heard another poster quote a TEC priest as having said that with every Rite I burial the church was getting closer to God. Does that say it all? If anthing were to make me feel good about leaving – that statement says is all.
Every time I saw another angry member leave TEC I would think of Lincoln saying to the Dunkards, “I need legions of men such as you.” But, out the door they went. Not a word of discussion from clergy, or encouragment to stay, just another goodbye. TEC is dead.
Jonathan Wynne-Jones is noted neither for the accuracy nor for the impartiality of his reporting. What he does bring out is the virulent anti-Catholicism of much of the British press. There were no Papal plots, only an extraordinarily charitable response to a group of people who found their ability to continue in the Catholic doctrinal tradition within the Church of England a fast fading hope.
‘Plots hatched behind closed doors”??? Should they have had cookouts in the middle of St. Peter’s Square for talks.
And many Catholics who have wanted to enthusiastically welcome Anglicans have complained for many, many years about how unwelcoming the British hierarchy has been toward those swimming the Tiber.
And I thought, at first, Teatime was being sarcastic or satirical about the “Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.” But then she seemed to tie them to “uber-liberal Catholic parishes.”
However, there is nothing liberal or Catholic about the “sisters.” They are just a hate group. If it is the group I have read about, they viciously hate Catholicism, the Catholic Church, and Catholic leaders, especially this pope. Their main activity is apparently to mock and deride the Catholic Church, usually at Gay Pride parades.
deaconjohn25,
I was only sort of being sarcastic about the “sisters.” You do realize that they ran a bingo game at an RC church in San Fran. to raise money for their AIDS work, right? They’re a fixture there and were supported by at least some of the RC parishes. I don’t keep up with them, LOL, so I don’t know if anyone in the RC hierarchy has clamped down on that but it was going on.
That’s why Caedmon posted the vid, I’m guessing. Did you see anyone in the vid look surprised by these characters receiving Communion and mingling at the social?
Look, there’s a very good reason why I don’t get as outraged by TEC activities as others do here. In my 30+ years as a Catholic, I’ve seen so much crazy crap that I don’t know if there’s anything TEC could do that would even raise my eyebrows. And I’ve never even lived in any liberal hotbeds.
Perhaps the RCC in England isn’t like that, I dunno. But I can’t help hoping and praying that the good souls heading to Rome have taken the time to visit lots of RC parishes, speak with the laity, and worship at various churches frequently. They seem to be relying on the appearance that they will be set apart from the rest of the RCs, retaining their own clergy and special liturgy. That may or may not continue in the future.
“However, there is nothing liberal or Catholic about the “sisters.†They are just a hate group. If it is the group I have read about, they viciously hate Catholicism, the Catholic Church, and Catholic leaders, especially this pope. Their main activity is apparently to mock and deride the Catholic Church, usually at Gay Pride parades.”
And they were warmly received in that SF parish, not to mention given Holy Communion by the Roman Catholic archbishop. While Benedict XVI might be just the greatest thing since sliced bread, and while there are many good, orthodox people in the Roman communion, it is nevertheless experiencing its own progression of “Episcopalianization”. More ominously, the powers that be seem unwilling or unable to stop that progression. And as Teatime2 suggests, in many cases this will mean Traditionalist Anglicans departing from the frying pan into the fire.
A quick Google revealed this most recent article:
http://calcatholic.web141.discountasp.net/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=ad8314c6-3a6f-4153-8008-9633a36ce200
The “sisters'” lewd bingo games have been removed from the parish hall, apparently, but that’s the only thing that’s changed. They’re still a fixture at the parish.
24.
And, as you likely know, this isn’t the only manifestation of a homosexualist subculture operating in the Roman communion.
Indeed, Caedmon. And what happens when you have an RC bishop or archbishop who tolerates (or aids and abets) such activities? Rarely anything and, more often, absolutely nothing unless the outcry is so public and so persistent that the Vatican MUST act to save face. Do the Anglicans realize this? Or is simply having a formidable-appearing hierarchical structure enough for them?
I know they name female ordained ministry as the primary reason they are leaving but my goodness. Is the formation and ministry of women so repugnant that they are willing to tolerate all sorts of other problems? IMO, the ministry of Mary Magdalene and other women who followed Jesus makes the prohibition of women in ordained ministry questionable. Regardless, though, the question is indeed a divisive one in the RCC, as well. Would they really prefer to have women gleefully dancing around with the book of the Gospels, as seen in that vid you posted, or women who have been educated and trained and are serving in a dignified and organized manner? They’re not going to escape the issue.
Anecdotally, I’ve been around the RC’s renegade nuns and activist female laity and, of course, I’ve had a lot of contact with female Episcopal priests. There is no comparison when it comes to dignity and true service. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule but, as a point of principle, it’s the better policy to have educated and trained female ministry than to simply look the other way when female activists enter the picture while repeating a church prohibition on female ordained ministry.
Not the that Catholic Church needs defending from the likes of me, but Caedmon’s two examples are far from mainstream. For starters, don’t tar +Niederauer so quickly. In the video he clearly pauses, and raises his hand to offer the blessing usually reserved for non-communicants. He also immediately had to explain to the San Francisco RC community why he had received them. His answer, I thought at the time, was generous and gentlemanly (but then I’m an Anglican who does not hold to “close” communion). There was actually a bit of a firestorm there for several weeks. I can assure you that the Archbishop has no intention of aiding or abetting the “sisters”. If anything the Roman Catholics are pretty much the last vestige of anything approaching orthodox Christianity in San Francisco, and they do so bravely and resolutely in the face of an incredibly hostile liberal populace.
And as for the puppet mass, it was put on by Call to Action, a group which would love nothing better than to TECize the Roman Church. If anything Rome may be looking to orthodox Anglo-Catholics as added allies in the fight against such groups (not that the RCs need the help – they’ve been plenty good at fighting revisionism on their own).
One reason I am so enthusiastic about the Ordinariate is that hopefully it will be the equivalent of the cavalry arriving to save the day (a bit strong analogy, I admit). Society and western culture is becoming so depraved and decadent the only strong force left trying to stop the slide into an amoral secularism or Islamic takeover is the Catholic Church and those enthusiastic about the orthodox Catholic Faith.
Lost Desert wrote:
[blockquote] “Not a word of discussion from clergy, or encouragment to stay, just another goodbye. TEC is dead.” [/blockquote]
Which appears to mirror the situation in CofE, although the liberal bishops there do seem finally to be making some attempt to get people to stay.
However, we should remember that the orthodox (Global South) primates have made it clear that they regard themselves as in communion with two groups in USA: those orthodox Anglicans who have left TEC for ACNA, and those orthodox Anglicans who remain in TEC.
Similarly, if there are ever moves by orthodox Anglicans to separate themselves from CofE (i.e. as opposed to moving to non-Anglican churches such as the Pentecostals or the Roman Catholic Church) then we can expect that the GS Primates will make clear that they regard themselves as in communion with both “leavers” and “stayers”.
I think it is tolerably clear that in the long run, the GS Primates intend to see one orthodox Anglican jurisdiction in USA and one orthodox Anglican jurisdiction in England. But note, the emphasis is on *orthodox* and on *long run*. I think they are prepared to see any established group (such as CofE) go down the tube if it keeps rejecting orthodoxy, and they are prepared to let multiple jurisdictions exist until motives become clear. Anglicanism will survive regardless.
But I cannot easily commune with those Global South Anglicans, would that I could. I cannot take my kids to get confirmed there, though that would be a confirmation worth attending. I cannot attend church there. I cannot see those strong Christians on the altar, reminding me of what I am to do right. I am here in USA without such benefit.
I hope the Global South drowns TEC, I hope they make such a Christian noise that the whole of Africa is filled with the Spirit and no one can even hear the scratchy babbling of KJS.
The Global South is where it is happening. I wish them every Godly success. I pray they stay the course. They are our hope. God damn KJS and those who killed my church. God Bless those men in Africa who stand strong for the gospel (yes I did say men, there aren’t any men left in TEC, are there?).
lostdesert,
To be perfectly honest, I’ve lost all faith in church “men.” I’m tired of the politics, the bickering, the pi*@ing contests (sorry, but I couldn’t think of a nicer synonym to mean the same thing!), and all of the other things that seem to plague every single denomination. The Global South has their share of problems, too, including some cultural practices that simply wouldn’t fly here and Western Christians would find very problematic.
There is no perfect church. None. I reconciled myself to this long ago. I decided that the best I could hope for is to find a church with beautiful worship and sacraments where I could worship fervently and some good adult ed. and groups where I could learn something and serve. That’s it. The rest is up to me and God — not some hierarchy, church committee or in vogue theologians.
“Standing strong for the gospel” is something that all of us should do in our daily lives by what we believe and and the way we should live. And that’s the problem, I think. Christians, for some reason, seem to need to look to Rome or Constantinople or Africa for commitment to the Gospel. Why???
I think of all of the Christians through the centuries who were persecuted for their faith and had to practice it in secret, without benefit of clergy or services or Sunday school. They clung to it as their most precious possession and the greatest gift they could give their children. That’s the sort of faith I want, set very much apart from squabbles and politics. It rests with me and my commitment, and the promises I made at my son’s baptism and fulfilled to the very best of my ability.
I left the RCC for many reasons, some most notably related to the abuse situation and also because I simply did not believe some of the RC doctrine. But I didn’t come to the Anglican Communion hoping for a different kind of hiearchy and political structure ‘ that would agree with me and behave as I thought a church should.
Quite honestly, I came because of the beautiful worship that touched my soul and gave wings to my prayers, for the sacraments celebrated so reverently, for the BCP which I consider a treasure, and for the quality Bible studies. I don’t give a toss what they’re doing at 815 or in LA. On my Judgment Day, the Lord is going to ask me about MY life, devotion, and choices, not Bruno’s or Schori’s.
There are no perfect churches, bishops, popes, or political structures. And, yes, I know people who church-hop hoping to find perfection and are sorely disappointed. In what is only my opinion, the very best we can do is look inward and find a church community that allows us to grow in God’s grace. That probably sounds congregationalist and maybe it is. But I’ve seen too much to believe that always looking outward in expectation of perfect “orthodoxy,” however one defines that, is healthy or even possible. Unfortunately, “church” is quite involved with “politics,” despite Jesus’ admonition about how to live in this world.
Teatime,
Since no-one on this thread has indicated they are looking for a “perfect church”, “perfection”, “perfect orthodoxy” (or any of the other assumptions you have made about what others believe), you don’t have to worry about a thing.
MichaelA,
I spoke for myself and these are my reflections only, in reference to lostdesert’s comments about the Global South. I’m not describing anyone else’s journey or experiences/understandings, only mine. If you (or anyone else) don’t care what I think, that’s fine — don’t read it.
Furthermore, I made no “assumptions” about anyone here. In regards to perfect orthodoxy, the RCC makes that claim for itself by its billing as the One True Church and the infallibility doctrine. It exists in theory but not so much in practice, which is what I was pointing out. Churches are human institutions. Again, if you choose to personalize that reflection and apply it to others, it’s not my problem.
I did find it interesting that my experiences are largely reflected in an article about a survey that Canon Harmon posted today.
About the Catholic Church imperfectly following or living up to its Holy Spirit protected and guided teachings, doctrines, and Traditions: The French have an old folk saying that the Catholic Church must be God’s Church since in 2,000 years its clergy hasn’t been able to destroy it .
Maybe that has to do with Christ’s promise to be with His Church until the end of time and his promise to Peter that the Gates of Hell would not prevail in His Church. On the other hand he never promised boffo liturgies–which we would all love to experience, but are sometimes beyond the skill of some of the most holy and dedicated priests, deacons, and congregations to perform.
Teatime2 at 31: that’s a remarkable comment. After reading it the first time, I had to think about it some before posting a response.
While I am one of those “purity seekers” referenced in your critique, I can’t find much to disagree with in your argument. If you’re able to “live under the radar” as it were, experiencing a full life in Christ with your Bible and BCP in the midst of TEC, then I say more power to you. Personally, I couldn’t do this. When I walk into a Christian church, I expect Christianity to be there. And maybe it still is in the form of the prayerbook. But it seems assaulted by so much that isn’t Christian. That’s my perception anyway. So, that’s why I opted for the Continuum.
Teatime,
[blockquote] “I spoke for myself and these are my reflections only…” [/blockquote]
My apologies, I was distracted by the following parts of your post at #31:
[blockquote] “Christians, for some reason, seem to need to look to Rome or Constantinople or Africa for commitment to the Gospel. Why??? … , yes, I know people who church-hop hoping to find perfection and are sorely disappointed.” [/blockquote]
It appeared to me that you were making comment about others (presumably including every person who “looks to Rome or Constaninople or Africa for commitment to the gospel” – rather a large bunch)!
East, West, Anglican is best.
“East, West, Anglican is best.”
Jim Morrison and the Doors from [i]The End[/i]? No, wait. . . .