Welby’s visit was to offer condolences for Egypt’s most recent witnesses, the twenty Coptic Christians and one Ghanaian martyred in Libya in February. The word ”˜martyr’ is derived from a Greek word meaning ”˜witness.’
Symbolically, Welby delivered to Pope Tawadros twenty-one letters written by grieving British families. One is believed to have been related to David Haines, the aid worker captured in Syria and beheaded last year.
“Why have the martyrs of Libya spoken so powerfully to the world?” Welby asked. “The way these brothers lived and died communicated that their testimony is trustworthy.”
“Why have the martyrs of Libya spoken so powerfully to the world?†Welby asked. “The way these brothers lived and died communicated that their testimony is trustworthy.â€
No doubt Archbishop Welby was able to brief Archbishop Mouneer on his own personal experience of persecution, albeit from the other side with persecuting dear Bishop John Ellison on behalf of the Stinker of Salisbury.
Why has Archbishop Mouneer invited Justin Welby to Cairo? Does he not know what Welby and Holtam are up to in persecuting +John Ellison? Why is Archbishop Mouneer welcoming the persecutor of his brothers and sisters in England and giving him a platform in Cairo?
Will you not stand with the faithful Archbishop Mouneer?
Pageantmaster, +Mouneer knows. He doesn’t go to “indaba” meetings or have any truck with American revisionists. I note that +Welby’s condolence visit was to Pope Tawadros, whose people were martyred. I presume he did not preach the revisionist line either at St. Mark’s or All Saints, Cairo.
#2 Well Katherine, I am afraid that he did:
and
In addition Conger reports that Archbishop Mouneer was at Welby’s side on all his visits to church and state leaders in Egypt. Welby was not ‘border-crossing’ in this particular instance.
As can be seen from the Diocese of Egypt website, here and here
PM, Katherine did not say Abp. Welby did not preach at All Saints Cathedral. She said he did not preach the revisionist line at All Saints Cathedral.
Sorry, but I disagree with your attacking +Mouneer for hosting
+Welby’s visit in this instance. Most of the world knows or cares nothing about Ellison and the current situation in the COE. Most of the world DOES know about the martyrs in Libya & Kenya, and the fact that +Welby was there in Cairo testifying to the faithfulness of the Egyptian martyrs on the day the news of the Ethiopian martyrs was announced was quite dramatic.
Many of us criticized Pres. Obama for not marching in Paris with other world leaders after Charlie Hebdo. It would have been scandalous for Welby not to make some very visible show of solidarity with the persecuted church in Egypt, Kenya and elsewhere. I’m very glad for what +Welby preaced in Cairo, and I’m very thankful for +Mouneer’s bold stand against revisionism and his leadership in uniting Christians in Egypt at this time.
BTW, I am NOT a Welby fan. There’s much he’s done that concerns me greatly. But I do think you have to remember what he represents as the symbol of the Anglican Communion to most of the world. He needed to be in Cairo. Really.
I loved the last line of George Conger’s article:
Finishing his sermon, he promised the audience that he was praying for them in the Middle East, but closed with a request of his own, for the West. “Please pray for us, that in our comfort we do not forget to be faithful witnesses.â€
Amen. A very needed prayer request.
#6 Karen B.
Katherine mentioned preaching a revisionist line. I did not.
I asked why Bishop Mouneer invited a man who with Nick Holtam is involved in the literal martyring of a good and decent man, Bishop Ellison suffering from cancer.
“Most of the world knows or cares nothing about Ellison” – it is certainly time that those in the Anglican world did, just like we cared about Bishops Cox, Akerman and Lawrence, not to mention John Yates and the Egyptian martyrs.
You can learn more about Bishop Ellison here. Please pray for him, and speak up for him, and make it clear to his persecutors too.
It’s fascinating to read Abp, Mouneer’s account of Abp. Welby’s visit, linked in Geo. Conger’s article:
http://dioceseofegypt.org/2015/04/the-visit-of-the-archbishop-of-canterbury-to-egypt/
WOW. Mouneer & Welby were with the President for 70 minutes and apparently talked deeply re: religious freedom, etc., and Mouneer was able to give Pres. Sisi some of the books published by the Anglican Church in Egypt. Let’s be praying for God to work in Pres. Sisi’s heart through those books.
Abp. Mouneer writes:
[i]Archbishop Justin Welby’s visit was a great encouragement and demonstration of the unity of the global church in the face of adversity. For its success we give thanks to God.[/i]
Yes. Indeed.
On that occasion Anglican politics needed to be left aside. There was a bigger message & story.
#9 Karen B
It is persecution we are talking about – just as happened in the States, now sadly exported over here, it is not “Anglican politics”.
No amount of pretty words, nor deep talks from the perpetrators of that covers the violence that is being done to faithful Anglicans by the deliverer of those messages.
PM, I know about Rev. Ellison and have been praying for his situation. I’m not saying it doesn’t matter. Just that 99% of the world has no idea who he is or what is going on so for +Mouneer to make that case grounds for refusing +Justin’s visit would have been very very strange for the Christians in Egypt.
time for me to call it a night…
#11/12 Karen B – I think it is a mistake to put on one side what is being done to Bp Ellison, for a perceived PR impact of someone participating in this visit. There are other prelates and indeed heads of state who could have an equal impact without inviting those whose hands may quite literally be on the way to being tainted with blood.
Didn’t know I had gotten into trouble while out to supper. I expected that +Welby would have preached at All Saints, Cairo, but I doubt very much that he had the gall to “preach the revisionist line” while on a visit to honor martyrs. I agree with Karen B. that the symbolism, in Egypt, of a prominent Western religious leader meeting with President Sisi and the Chief Imam of al Azhar is very striking and encouraging.
The report at the Diocese of Egypt site, linked by Karen B., says that +Welby asked to come to Cairo to speak to Pope Tawadros, not that +Mouneer called him. Perhaps these discussions with Christian leaders in Egypt whose people literally die for the faith may have a salutary effect back at Lambeth Palace.
Pageantmaster, if you were to ask if Bishop Mouneer would accord the same time and respect to Nick Holtham, should he visit Cairo, I believe the answer would be no. Bishop Mouneer has been consistently and publicly supportive of conservative Anglicans around the world for years.
#14/15 Katherine – it is not a question of what is being preached, nor of who is more conservative than whom, it is what Holtam and Welby are doing to +John Ellison in bringing and taking forward charges.
I was very challenged this month by the death of an old friend who very practically showed the Christian life lived. He had a strong sense of justice, would not countenance bullying or accept the oppression of the weak and the vulnerable nor respect anything which says ‘this can’t be done’. He had an extraordinary impact on both those like me who met him and in changing the community remarkably.
I think we need to remain absolutely clear in calling out that which is wrong and dissuading those who for institutional or pragmatic reasons are prepared to go along with evil, and that included making it absolutely clear to them. No ancient title or smoothly written words, no claimed influence from a self-proclaimed importance, or siren call to ‘assist’ our current issues should deflect us from that.
The path which some are beginning to take in the Church of England is a development of a mind set which has been prepared to go along with the disgraceful and un-Christian actions we have seen in TEC and its wicked Presiding Bishop which led to the persecution of the faithful. Instead of calling TEC on it, they have praised TEC and lauded its Presiding Bishop. Instead of standing firm they have taken TEC’s money and assisted the embedding of its heresies and the bribing of TEC’s way back into the poorer parts of the Communion.
It is time to call that out, and to make it clear that this is the wrong way to go and is the path to death and decline such as TEC and ACoC are experiencing. There is no future, and certainly no Christian future in it.
It is not the first time that there has been a problem with revisionist bishops in England. Under Rowan Williams, there were attempts to use disciplinary process by the bishops of Southwark and Chelmsford against conservatives in their dioceses. Williams, for all his faults, did not go along with this but banged heads together and told them to get on in a Christian manner. How different the conduct of Justin Welby who instead shows his managerial, inexperienced and small man side along with the Bishop of Salisbury [a man who is no stranger to disobedience to the Church’s teaching].
I hope that Archbishop Mouneer and those others for whom Welby is probably making travel plans do not go along with this, the most recent persecution and as the GAFCON Primates rightly made clear “unjust and uncharitable” charges brought against Bishop John Ellison. That is the reason, whatever the side benefits, that I believe it is wrong to welcome those participating in this and to give them a platform, which they have taken up and used for propaganda. Welby seeks to claim, like TEC that his conduct is acceptable and OK, for ‘look here are all these conservative Primates who welcome and need him’.
It is not OK, and that should be said, very clearly. Archbishop Mouneer is one of my heroes, but this invitation does not help. Nor does it help not to point out by actions that Welby and his colleagues are taking the wrong path. Instead this visit may even encourage them.
Please remember dear Bishop John Ellison and support and pray for him and do not support in any way his persecutors, but pray for their change of heart and return to the right path following the Master.
You are right, Pageantmaster, about the direction in which the CofE is heading. We have certainly seen it here in the US. My condolences on the loss of your friend. May we all have the courage to follow his example. I will pray for Bishop Ellison, for the Church of England, and I will pray that the experience of meeting genuine Christian saints in Egypt may help Bishop Welby to see clearly.
#18 Thank you for your thoughts and prayers Katherine – they are needed and appreciated.
I hope people think before giving photo opportunities, whether in the Indian Ocean, Asia, North West Africa [less likely at the moment I imagine], or elsewhere until we see evidence of Welby and others doing the right thing on this and other matters.